Blessed Mary Again

[Evangetholic]

Yes I consider this woman to be among the greatest of all believers (from the cradle, to the cross, to the sky she, was with Him). I consider the brief glimpses we get of her in Scripture to be of a woman who has poured herself out for God and who lives in obedience to Him. I consider to in some very real and undefinable way the Mother of the Church--a Christian who has not been fed on anti-Catholicism will feel a spine tingle at the mention of her name and a real and immediate filial loyalty to her. I do not, however, find her to be "my life, sweetness, or hope." I do not find her to be the "Queen of Heaven"--which is a title used in the OT for a pagan goddess. I do not find her to be my co-redemptrix or my mediatrix. 

[Nihil Obstat]

Do you believe that the Holy Virgin is Theotokos?

[Evangetholic]

It's a good and wholesome thing to call her such. God Almighty lived in her womb and drew nourishment from her breasts--the Christian world is becoming too weak on Christ's deity for any reasonable man to object to calling her the Mother of God.

Edited February 10, 2013 by Evangetholic

[Nihil Obstat]

It's a good and wholesome thing to call her such. God Almighty lived in her womb and drew nourishment from her breasts--the Christian world is becoming too weak on Christ's deity for any reasonable man to object to calling her the Mother of God.

Excellent. That is a great start.

[Basilisa Marie]

Co-redemptrix and mediatrix are titles that are really controversial right now.  They are in no way official teaching.  It's like they're experimental theology. :)

 

(Though for what it's worth, I don't like co-redemptrix, but in one way mediatrix of all graces makes sense to me - but I'm a member of a Mary cult, so you'd expect that kind of nonsense from people like me)

Edited February 10, 2013 by Basilisa Marie

[Nihil Obstat]

Co-redemptrix and mediatrix are titles that are really controversial right now.  They are in no way official teaching.  It's like they're experimental theology. :)

Mediatrix was used in Lumen Gentium. So I guess you must be one of those rad-trads that wants to throw out Vatican II. :|

 

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[Basilisa Marie]

Mediatrix was used in Lumen Gentium. So I guess you must be one of those rad-trads that wants to throw out Vatican II. :|

 

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Ah, but the term was "Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix and Mediatrix", not Mediatrix of all Graces.  :|

 

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[Nihil Obstat]

Ah, but the term was "Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix and Mediatrix", not Mediatrix of all Graces.   :|

 

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Nobody said anything about "all graces". :| :| :|

[Evangetholic]

Co-redemptrix and mediatrix are titles that are really controversial right now.  They are in no way official teaching.  It's like they're experimental theology. :)

 

(Though for what it's worth, I don't like co-redemptrix, but in one way mediatrix of all graces makes sense to me - but I'm a member of a Mary cult, so you'd expect that kind of nonsense from people like me)

 

Mexiatrix is the doctrine that all grace flows to us throw the Virgin, correct?

lol "Mexiatrix," I do not mean  Nuestra Senora de Guadalupe.

[Basilisa Marie]

Mexiatrix is the doctrine that all grace flows to us throw the Virgin, correct?

lol "Mexiatrix," I do not mean  Nuestra Senora de Guadalupe.

 

Mediatrix of all graces means that.  "Mediatrix" seems to be a bit stickier to define exactly what it means. 

Nobody said anything about "all graces". :| :| :|

 

Psh, someone totally did.  ME.  :)

[Nihil Obstat]

Psh, someone totally did.  ME.   :)

I chose to ignore that because of your pernicious rad-tradness or something. 

[Archaeology cat]

As for Queen of Heaven being used in reference to a pagan goddess, Lord of Lords was also used in reference to pagan gods,but that doesn't invalidate it's use for God. In the Davidic kingdom, the queen was the king's mum. Jesus is our King, thus His Mother, Mary, is the Queen.

God bless

[MIKolbe]

There is only one mediator between God and man. That is the Son of the Living God, Jesus Christ; who, through the Pascal Mystery, reconciles us to the Father.

[Evangetholic]

There is only one mediator between God and man. That is the Son of the Living God, Jesus Christ; who, through the Pascal Mystery, reconciles us to the Father.

 

This is mere Christianity. We all share this belief. Dissenters are in no way, shape, or form Christians.

As for Queen of Heaven being used in reference to a pagan goddess, Lord of Lords was also used in reference to pagan gods,but that doesn't invalidate it's use for God. In the Davidic kingdom, the queen was the king's mum. Jesus is our King, thus His Mother, Mary, is the Queen.

God bless

 

I'd be interested in seeing the Biblical refernces for this (on Old Israel). And no a thing doesn't become forbidden simply from  the fact that non-monotheists hae applied it to their idols--still Lord of Lords is a Biblical title and I see nowhere in the text where a demon from Hell is called it.

[Apotheoun]

Yes I consider this woman to be among the greatest of all believers (from the cradle, to the cross, to the sky she, was with Him). I consider the brief glimpses we get of her in Scripture to be of a woman who has poured herself out for God and who lives in obedience to Him. I consider to in some very real and undefinable way the Mother of the Church--a Christian who has not been fed on anti-Catholicism will feel a spine tingle at the mention of her name and a real and immediate filial loyalty to her. I do not, however, find her to be "my life, sweetness, or hope." I do not find her to be the "Queen of Heaven"--which is a title used in the OT for a pagan goddess. I do not find her to be my co-redemptrix or my mediatrix. 

Some of your sentiments have an affinity with Eastern Orthodoxy, but the Orthodox are of course quite willing to give the Blessed Theotokos many of the same titles that Roman Catholics use in their liturgical and devotional life.  The main difference between Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy in connection with Our Lady is that the Orthodox refuse to create "new" dogmas related to the Virgin Mary, while Roman Catholics accept a theory of doctrinal development that allows for "new" dogmas, e.g., the Immaculate Conception. 

[MIKolbe]

And Mary intercedes for us and mediates for us to her Son. Her mediation is subordinate to her Son's, as by simply offering a prayer for your brother is an intercession (as Paul demonstrates in Scripture). Her mediation is greater than yours or mine because of her uniquely special relationship with The Annointed One.

[Apotheoun]

And Mary intercedes for us and mediates for us to her Son. Her mediation is subordinate to her Son's, as by simply offering a prayer for your brother is an intercession (as Paul demonstrates in Scripture). Her mediation is greater than yours or mine because of her uniquely special relationship with The Annointed One.

I agree.  The mediation of the Theotokos, and that of all the saints, is a participation in Christ's sole mediation.  As far as Mary being "Queen" is concerned, it follows that she is Queen Mother since Christ is our King.

[Evangetholic]

And Mary intercedes for us and mediates for us to her Son. Her mediation is subordinate to her Son's, as by simply offering a prayer for your brother is an intercession (as Paul demonstrates in Scripture). Her mediation is greater than yours or mine because of her uniquely special relationship with The Annointed One.

 

That sounds like intercession to me not mediation. The one is Biblical the other is only done by God to God for man.

 

And on intercession. I know veneration of the Saints is patristic, I also know from the Bible (sections in Hebrews and Revelations that I'll need to look up if anyone is interested) that "dead" Christians are very much alive and very much aware of what we are doing here--in time. I do not, however, as individual pray to any saints. Not because I think this practice in and of itself is problematic, but because I cannot give my assent to the sentiments contained in many prayers addressed to the Saints who are living now with God, outside of time, particularly the Virgin. I remember a real joy in praying to her when I was a child--but I can no longer say the Hail Mary, Hail Holy Queen,or any other Marian prayer I was raised with.

 

Taking my cue from Apotheoun I went hunting for Orthodox prayers addressed to her. I find what follows to be most problematic. An explanation of the bolded portions would be most appreciated:

 

Rejoice Mary, Mother of God, Virgin, full of grace, the Lord is with
thee: blessed art thou among women and blessed is the Fruit of thy womb,
for thou hast borne the Savior of our souls. Meet it is in truth, to
glorify thee, O Birth-giver of God, ever blessed, and all undefiled, the
Mother of our God. More honorable than the Cherubim, and beyond compare
more glorious than the Seraphim, thou who without stain didst bear God
the word, true Birth-giver of God, we magnify thee.

O gracious Mother of the gracious God, O most pure and blessed Mary,
the Mother of God, pour the mercy of thy Son and our God upon my
impassionate soul, and with thine intercessions set me unto good
deeds, that I may pass the rest of my life without blemish and, with thine
aid, attain heaven. O Virgin mother of God, the only one who art pure and
blessed. O Queen of the Heavenly Host, Defender of our souls: being
delivered from evil, as thy servants, O Mother of God, we offer unto thee
the hymns of thanks and victory; but as thou hast power invincible,
deliver us from all calamity, that we may cry unto thee: Rejoice, O
ever-Virgin Bride!

O virgin, spotless, undefiled, unstained, all-chaste
and Pure Lady, Bride of God, who by the glorious birth-giving hast united
God the Word with Man and linked our fallen nature with Heavenly Things;
who art the hope of the hopeless, the helper of the oppressed, the ready
protection of those who haste unto thee, and the refuge of Christians;
despise me not, who am defiled and sinful, who by my wicked thoughts,
words and deeds, have become an unworthy servant, and by my slothfulness
have turned into a slave to evil affections. O Mother of the God of Love,
have mercy and compassion upon me, a sinner and a prodigal. Accept this
prayer which is offered to thee from my impure lips; and putting forward
thy maternal influence with thy Son, my Lord and Master, beseech Him to
open unto me the lovingkindness of His grace; beseech Him to overlook my
countless transgressions, to give me true repentance and to make me to be
a zealous doer of His commandments. And thou, being gracious and
compassionate and tender-hearted, be thou ever present with me in this
life as my defender and helper, so that I may turn aside the assault of my
enemies, and guide me into salvation; help my poor soul at the hour of my
death, and drive far from it all the dark forms of the evil ones. And in
the dreadful Judgement Day, deliver me from everlasting punishment, and
present me as an inheritor of the ineffable glory of the son, our God.

O may I obtain this, most-holy Lady and Birth-giver of God, through
thine intercessions and mediations, by the grace and exceeding great love
of thine Only-Begotten son, my Lord and God and Savior, Jesus Christ, to
Whom is due, with the eternal Father and the All-Holy, Good and
Life-Giving Spirit, all honor and glory and worship, now and ever, and
unto ages of ages. Amen.

O most glorious Ever-Virgin Mary, Mother of Christ our God, accept our
prayers and present them to thy son and our God, that He may, for thy
sake, enlighten and save our souls.

Edited February 11, 2013 by Evangetholic

[Apotheoun]

Orthodoxy, like Roman Catholicism, sees the Church - and all the saints - as participants in Christ's incarnation. The incarnation is of course a concrete historical reality, but is not something relegated to the past. In fact, the Church - and by this I mean all the members of Christ united to their Head - is the perpetual extension of the incarnation through space and time, and this idea was taught by the earliest Christians as a necessary thing (see the writings of St. Ignatios of Antioch, St. Ireneaus, St. Cyril of Alexandria, et al.). Now St. Cyril of Alexandria, who happens to be a favorite author of mine among the God-inspired Fathers, in his homilies on the Gospel of John emphasized the truth I have mentioned above by pointing out that the text of chapter one verse fourteen of that Gospel, which reads as follows, "and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us," has a double meaning, because the Greek word á¼Î½ does not simply mean "among," but also means "in," and so the text can also rightly be translated as "the Word became flesh and dwelt in us." For you see, Christ's mediation - in fact all that He did - continues in His body the Church, for what is complete in the Head must also be completed in the body if salvation is to be accomplished. Thus the intimate connection that exists between Christ and His Church makes it possible to glorify Christ in His saints (obviously including the Holy Theotokos), and the glory given to the image passes immediately to its prototype. So when a man gives glory to the saints (or to the Holy Theotokos) the glory given is received by Christ the author of all holiness. After all, the saints are saints for no other reason than because they are in Christ, for He acts in, with, and through them, and so by venerating and glorifying the saints a man venerates and glorifies Christ who lives in them, and Who made them holy in the first place. One of the ways I used to convey this idea to my students was to have them look at a shining stained glass window. I would then ask them, "What is it that makes the window bright and fills the room with light?" And of course they answered, "The Sun." I would then congratulate them for their perceptiveness, and say, "The same is true with the saints, because they shine with the glory of God, which they exemplified in their lives, and we honor each of them for that, and by honoring them we honor God who made them holy."

 

God's goodness - if salvation is to be effective - must permeate the whole of creation. Only if man is drawn to God the Father in His only-begotten Son through the power of the Holy Spirit, can he live as he was created to live, for it is only when a man can say, "It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me," that he can find his true being and the real purpose of his existence. That is the Christian way, for God will be all in all.

[Archaeology cat]

I'd be interested in seeing the Biblical refernces for this (on Old Israel). And no a thing doesn't become forbidden simply from the fact that non-monotheists hae applied it to their idols--still Lord of Lords is a Biblical title and I see nowhere in the text where a demon from Hell is called it.

Look at Bathsheba's role during Solomon's reign. She is the one who sat beside him as the queen. Also look at how people brought her petitions to take to the king.

I'd thought I'd seen "Lord of Lords" being used in reference to a pagan god, but can't find it now. I may have been mistaken. I'll have to look some more. Perhaps I was thinking of Baal, which means "lord".

God bless Edited February 12, 2013 by Archaeology cat