Evangetholic Posted February 17, 2013 Author Posted February 17, 2013 I am telling you in plain and common English that all humans have sinned, save only Christ Himself. But you will not take that verse you just quoted and twist it like some obscene pretzel into whatever bizarre personal innovation you've come up with. Speak plainly and say whatever you're working towards.
Evangetholic Posted February 17, 2013 Author Posted February 17, 2013 This is what a true witness said regarding Jesus Christ which is totally different from yours. It is written in Heb 6:16-7:3 Men swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument. Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged. We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek. This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him, and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name means "king of righteousness"; then also, "king of Salem " means "king of peace." Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever. ---------------------- Now, Do your Christ like Melchizedek without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, and a priest forever?. Everyone thinks Melchizedek is a type of Christ--it's the standard reading. Still Blessed Mary is repeatedly referred to in scripture as His mother. And if He is God, she's unavoidably the Mother of God (this is not some peculiarity of Catholic doctrine, this is mere Christianity).
Evangetholic Posted February 17, 2013 Author Posted February 17, 2013 And the likeness Melchizedek and Jesus share is not in supposed parentlessness, but in both being holders of the priesthood despite not being kohens--this is such a basic part of how this text is read that I forgot to say it.
reyb Posted February 17, 2013 Posted February 17, 2013 I am telling you in plain and common English that all humans have sinned, save only Christ Himself. But you will not take that verse you just quoted and twist it like some obscene pretzel into whatever bizarre personal innovation you've come up with. Speak plainly and say whatever you're working towards. I think you are not listening to yourself. If what you are saying regarding ‘all have sinned’ doctrine is true and if you are correct regarding Mary as a sinner, it will end up Jesus’ mother and grandparents are all of the devil because sinners are under the devil’s power. I think you want to stop at the middle of your argument thus; you are now blaming me for twisting and not listening to you.
Evangetholic Posted February 17, 2013 Author Posted February 17, 2013 Hebrews is addressed to first century Jews. Their religion was still the Judaism of the Old Testament, not Rabbinic Judaism, they would have had many questions about how Jesus could function as a priest while not being of male line priestly descent. I think you are not listening to yourself. If what you are saying regarding ‘all have sinned’ doctrine is true and if you are correct regarding Mary as a sinner, it will end up Jesus’ mother and grandparents are all of the devil because sinners are under the devil’s power. I think you want to stop at the middle of your argument thus; you are now blaming me for twisting and not listening to you. And I'm telling you that for about four different reasons that's not a reasonable way to read that verse.
reyb Posted February 17, 2013 Posted February 17, 2013 (edited) And the likeness Melchizedek and Jesus share is not in supposed parentlessness, but in both being holders of the priesthood despite not being kohens--this is such a basic part of how this text is read that I forgot to say it. Okay. Granted. they do not share 'supposed parentlessness'.. So again, Are you saying your Jesus has a mother who is under the devil’s power (since she is a sinner)? Or Can you please explain it further? (since it seems you accept them as sinners but you do not want to hear that they are under the devil's power). Edited February 17, 2013 by reyb
Evangetholic Posted February 17, 2013 Author Posted February 17, 2013 Okay. Granted. they do not share 'supposed parentlessness'.. So again, Are you saying your Jesus has a mother who is under the devil’s power? This is the entire section from 1 John 3 that you are quoting: 1 See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure. 4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. 7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister. ----------------------------------------------------- This is about a life whose very pattern after an apparent conversion is sin. The Virgin Mary is described in Luke as kecharitomene (highly favored, full of grace) she was in no way shape or form a woman of lawlessness the word suggests uncommon holiness. Even if I disagree with Catholics about her supposed sinlessness and Immaculate Conception, I do not in any way shape or form believe that she was under the power of Satan or lived a life that would make the Holy Bible's declaration of her as "Blessed" and "Full of Grace" a lie.
reyb Posted February 17, 2013 Posted February 17, 2013 We are not talking whether the bible is a lie or not. We are simply discussing in what way Mary is a sinner but not under the devil’s power. It seems you are now telling me that only those people who ‘continually’ commit sins or keep on sinning, are of devil while Mary is not that kind of person. She is maybe ‘not’ a sinless person but still she did not continually commit sin. Is this what you are telling me?
Evangetholic Posted February 17, 2013 Author Posted February 17, 2013 Reyb, do you read Melchizedek as Christ rather than a type of Christ? We are not talking whether the bible is a lie or not. We are simply discussing in what way Mary is a sinner but not under the devil’s power. It seems you are now telling me that only those people who ‘continually’ commit sins or keep on sinning, are of devil while Mary is not that kind of person. She is maybe ‘not’ a sinless person but still she did not continually commit sin. Is this what you are telling me? Yes.
reyb Posted February 17, 2013 Posted February 17, 2013 (edited) Reyb, do you read Melchizedek as Christ rather than a type of Christ? Yes. Something is not right with your notion of sin and power of the devil. I will post your quoted verse a while ago. ------------------- It is written in 1 John 3:4-6 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness . 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. ---------------------- Now, if Mary is not sinless from the very beginning and sin was forgiven only after Jesus' appearance. (See above verse). Are you saying Mary is not yet ‘cleanse’ from sin before she give birth to Jesus? Was she ‘contaminated’ with sin during that time when she is still in the act of giving birth with Jesus? ----------------------- Up to now, I am still looking for Melchizedek and Metatron (letters pertaining to them) so that I can answer this question with basis and references. Thank you for reminding me of this assignment, Edited February 17, 2013 by reyb
Evangetholic Posted February 17, 2013 Author Posted February 17, 2013 I think you rip the text from its context and try to force it to say things it does not say.
dairygirl4u2c Posted February 17, 2013 Posted February 17, 2013 "Now, if Mary is not sinless from the very beginning and sin was forgiven only after Jesus' appearance. (See above verse). Are you saying Mary is not yet ‘cleanse’ from sin before she give birth to Jesus? Was she ‘contaminated’ with sin during that time when she is still in the act of giving birth with Jesus?" "all have sinned and fa;; short of the glory of God" it's expecting to much for this to be literally true for all. mary might not be included. this is how your verse can be negated too
Evangetholic Posted February 17, 2013 Author Posted February 17, 2013 Reyb, this is not an accusation, but a question: Are you a believer in the heresy of Gnosticism? (I missed the part where you mentioned the demon Metatron)
reyb Posted February 18, 2013 Posted February 18, 2013 Reyb, this is not an accusation, but a question: Are you a believer in the heresy of Gnosticism? (I missed the part where you mentioned the demon Metatron) Let us define first what is 'Gnosticism' . What do you mean by it? "Now, if Mary is not sinless from the very beginning and sin was forgiven only after Jesus' appearance. (See above verse). Are you saying Mary is not yet ‘cleanse’ from sin before she give birth to Jesus? Was she ‘contaminated’ with sin during that time when she is still in the act of giving birth with Jesus?" "all have sinned and fa;; short of the glory of God" it's expecting to much for this to be literally true for all. mary might not be included. this is how your verse can be negated too Let us discuss it later.
reyb Posted February 18, 2013 Posted February 18, 2013 (edited) I think you rip the text from its context and try to force it to say things it does not say. I think you do not want to answer my question. Are you saying Mary is not yet ‘cleanse’ from sin before she give birth to Jesus? Was she ‘contaminated’ with sin during that time when she is still in the act of giving birth with Jesus? As I have told you, something is wrong with your idea of sin and power of the devil. It seems you want to reconcile the irreconciliable differences of a sinner but still, not under the power of the Evil Spirit. I am not the one who is ripping the scripture. Go figure out yourself who is doing it by explaining to me that verse. Edited February 18, 2013 by reyb
KnightofChrist Posted February 18, 2013 Posted February 18, 2013 Quoth the reyben, `Nevermore.' And the reyben, never flitting, still is sitting, still is sitting On the pallid bust of Pallas just above my chamber door; And his eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming, And the lamp-light o'er him streaming throws his shadow on the floor; And my soul from out that shadow that lies floating on the floor Shall be lifted - nevermore!
reyb Posted February 18, 2013 Posted February 18, 2013 Quoth the reyben, `Nevermore.' And the reyben, never flitting, still is sitting, still is sitting On the pallid bust of Pallas just above my chamber door; And his eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming, And the lamp-light o'er him streaming throws his shadow on the floor; And my soul from out that shadow that lies floating on the floor Shall be lifted - nevermore! :hehe2:
reyb Posted February 18, 2013 Posted February 18, 2013 Oh. Meet Reyb, if you haven't already. Thank you for the beautiful (? ) introduction. :hehe2:
reyb Posted February 18, 2013 Posted February 18, 2013 (edited) I am not Catholic. I believe the Bible when it says "for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Jesus is the only Biblical exception I see to this. So, which is which. Is Mary still a sinner before she gives birth to Jesus or not? I am waiting because I have a standing promise to Dairygirl4u2c to discuss this. So, do you still believe that Mary is ‘not’ sinless from the very beginning? I think I understand your idea of ‘sin’, which is really erroneous and not scriptural. Edited February 18, 2013 by reyb
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