Church/saint Teaching And Modesty

[Papist]

I still don't see the relevence, since no-one is advocating that in Western culture bikinis are modest. 

Although I would argue that in Brazil (for example) they are because there we have a very different cultural attitude towards the human body. 

 Again, I am not referring to anyone here advocating bikinis. I am stating that I don't know our culture (western) went from totally covered being the norm to practically totally uncovered being the norm.

[dominicansoul]

Its rather odd, papist.  Especially when the French guy who created the bikini couldn't find a decent woman who would model them for him.  He had to rely on strip tease dancers to do that.    It didn't take off.  Catholic countries banned them (awww, we had no disillusions about modesty back then,) and the majority of the world stuck to the more decent swimsuits on the market.  

 

In order to sell the bikini,  the creator had to advertise them as "liberation" for todays woman.  It worked.  And with the help of Hollywood starlets, the bikini became accepted.  Beaches used to have decency rules.  Those were shot down with the dawn of the bikini.  And women everywhere decided to justify swimming in their bra and underwear so they can get a great tan.  

 

To be honest, not even I bat my eyes at how nude people get at the beach.  I've been totally de-sensitized and don't even notice people.  (That and the fact I'm at the ocean looking in the waves the whole time to make sure I don't see a dorsal fin.)   I'm afraid we have all become more and more de-sensitized to immodesty.  But that doesn't take away the fact that these outfits are in fact, immodest.  

 

Perhaps we are moving towards total nudity at beaches?  Perhaps in 200 years or so,  mankind will walk around totally naked.  who knows.... I'm pretty sure decent Catholics will not follow the trend.  They will be mocked and ridiculed to no end...

[Papist]

I heard the French designer had to pay prostitutes for model his bikinis.  I remember when I went to Germany in 1998 for two week. I saw in a newspaper stand on the sidewalk a topless woman on the front page visible from inside the newsstand. Me and my sister were like what the..... Our two German friends were puzzled to why we thought that was shocking. They saw no problem. Hence, the desensitization. Then back at his apartment while getting ready to go out he walked around is in only his underwear (speedo type) and she in her bra and panties, and walking around like ho-hum no big deal. 

 

Faithful Catholic will always be mocked and ridiculed. Adding one more is not going to make much a difference. Being mocked and ridiculed for being faithful to the Catholic Church, which I equate to be faithful to Christ, helps me unite myself to Christ....and I need all the help I can get in that regard. 

 

[Ice_nine]

So ds and papist, I'm just curious about what you personally think about native cultures who for the most part "walk around naked" since you both seem to recoil at the idea that "modesty is relative." Are these people dressing immodestly? Are they just desensitized.

 

I'm not trying to be confrontational, I'm just curious as to your opinions. Also, was it wise for missionaries to go into these cultures and insist native peoples "cover up" and wear European style "modest" clothing? Personally I think Westerners get really hung up on sexualizing people (on both sides of the fence, those who insist we must cover ourselves and those who insist it's nbd we must "liberate" the body) I mean, does it even dawn on us that some cultures might not look at each other as an assemblage of body parts>

 

[dominicansoul]

I don't really know much about these native cultures, not as much as you peeps seem to know.  I don't know how they view nudity.  Do they turn off sexual desires or do they allow their sexual desires to be a constant in their lives?  Do men get turned on by all the nude women around them and vice versa?  I couldn't tell ya.  I'm not one of them, nor am I a relative of any tribe, and I've never lived amongst them nor do I come from that part of the world.  I get the feeling they do have libidos.  I mean, after all they are human, and they have a bunch of little humans every generation.  How did that happen?  I'm sure its from sex.  :P

 

Catholic missionaries have the obligation to bring them the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  With our Faith come demands and responsibilities.  Do you think that the Gospel allows them to continue to live in their pagan ways?  Lets say some native men have sex with multiple wives.  When missionaries come along and teach them the Gospel, and they embrace the Gospel, guess what?  Those multiple pairings must end.  Have the missionaries done them harm in this?  Should they have left them good enough alone?  When it comes to modesty, I don't know how the missionaries apply it to these tribes.  All I can tell you is that a priest friend tells me he asks the men to cover their privates and the women to cover their privates for Mass.  Common sense is applied.   Someone here mentioned that Pope John Paul allowed them to be naked at a Mass in Italy.  Was this proper?  I do not know, Pope John Paul allowed for a lot of things to happen at Masses he presided in.  I don't know if I agree with everything he allowed.  I still love him and still honor him as the Church does.

 

Jesus instructed us to "clothe the naked."   I suppose that's what missionaries feel the need to do when they bring Jesus to these natives who have never heard of Jesus.  They apply that instruction both materially and spiritually.   

 

The Church doesn't teach that modesty is "relative."  She teaches us to use "common sense" when it comes to modesty, neither going to the extremes of puritanism, nor to the extremes of hedonism.

 

But thanks for asking, you have given me points to think about.  :)

[Papist]

I can't speak to "native cultures" b/c I do not know such cultures. Don't know their history or how they think of or view nakedness. Would they wear clothes if it was available, I do not know. Do they look at each other's nakedness with a pure heart, I do not know. Do they struggle or not struggle, I do not know.

 

The missionaries going into these cultures is interesting to think about. I would think they would have to fight through any impure thoughts for the sake of the spreading the Good News of Jesus Christ. Do the converted begin to cover themselves once converted, I wonder.

 

Either way, regardless of how these native cultures dress, how common nakedness is, etc. does not give me cause to adopt the same attitude/belief/etc.

[Nihil Obstat]

Here are a few interesting pictures. First and second are most likely from Dakar, and the third would have been Gabon, in all probability.

 

 

 

[Nihil Obstat]

Actually on second though, the first is probably from Gabon as well.

[LittleWaySoul]

I see. So you accept going to dances as sinful because a couple of saints have said so.

 

I have referred a few times to St Augustine's derogatory comments on women. Here they are in full:

 

"What is the difference whether it is in a wife or a mother, it is still Eve the temptress that we must beware of in any woman...I fail to see what use woman can be to man, if one excludes the function of bearing children."

 

This is the opinion of a saint and a doctor of the Church, one of Christianity's foremost theologians and scholars. Would you recommend that husbands on Phatmass use this as a guide to how they should view their wives? That they are dangerous temptresses and their only worth is determined by the fact they have a womb? After all, it was written by a saint, so it must be right.

 

"Women should not be enlightened in any way. They should, in fact, be segregated as they are the cause of hideous and involuntary erections in holy men."

 

Do you attend school? If so, you need to stop. As a woman you shouldn't be educated. And I hope that you are planning to start gently encouraging a segregation policy at your church. In a non-judgmental way, of course. A saint and a prominent church figure has spoken, so it must be so. If you give such authority and weight to an unsubstantiated quotation from the Cardinal Vicar of Pius XII, how much more to St Augustine?

 

"Woman was merely man's helpmate, a function which pertains to her alone. She is not the image of God but as far as man is concerned, he is by himself the image of God."

 

Again, the words of a saint and a scholar. We're only here to help and serve men. We don't reflect God's image.

 

Do you support these ideas? And if not, why not? If your answer is no, then you must realise that 'But St Padre Pio said so' is perhaps not a good enough reason for turning a woman away from your confessional, and 'St John Vianney thought dances were sinful' is not on its own a reason to stop going to dances.

 

If we start treating saints as though they never get it wrong, we verge on the idolatrous. No matter how holy they were, they were still human, and they had their fair share of human errors.

 

THIS. WHERE ARE MY PROPS.

[LittleWaySoul]

GUYS. YOU ARE MISSING THE BIG PICTURE AT THE CENTER OF THIS THREAD.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

WHY HAS SHEISCATHOLIC DELETED ALL OF HER YOUTUBE VIDEOS?!?!?!?!?!

:sos:  :cry:  :unsure:  :eek:  :sad:  :sad2:  :cry4:  :o  :idontknow:  :shock:  :twitch:

[the171]

She had to because she is taking the habit soon. :)

[LittleWaySoul]

She had to because she is taking the habit soon. :)

 

Is that like a rule DSMME has? I would think the videos would be left up purely for their value as New Evangelization tools and suchlike.

[the171]

New name, new life.

[AnneLine]

Yup, that is what happens when people enter religious life.... eventually the blogs and other things disappear.

 

The Sisters have to let go of what was before.   So that God can do something new...

 

Also... Most likely she had to let go of her internet provider... no money to pay for it.  And so, no place to host the videos.  

 

Not sure, but kind of a suspicion.   Still, I wish someone else could have hosted them; a lot of people found them helpful.

 

 

Edited June 4, 2013 by AnneLine

[LittleWaySoul]

Yup, that is what happens when people enter religious life.... eventually the blogs and other things disappear.

 

The Sisters have to let go of what was before.   So that God can do something new...

 

Also... Most likely she had to let go of her internet provider... no money to pay for it.  And so, no place to host the videos.  

 

Not sure, but kind of a suspicion.

 

I didn't know that you needed internet connection to continue to have things online. For example... if my internet was taken away, my facebook profile would still exist until someone deleted it, right?

 

 

Still, I wish someone else could have hosted them; a lot of people found them helpful.

 

This is how I feel!  :cry4: