Church/saint Teaching And Modesty

[EmilyAnn]

One of her friends (and fellow vlogger) has explained it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fzqO5A-S9M

 

[Guest Allie]

One of her friends (and fellow vlogger) has explained it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fzqO5A-S9M

This is modesty and humility that I can understand (and pray to attain.) 

[ToJesusMyHeart]

Does anybody here read Verily? They have a great post up about swimwear.

 

http://verilymag.com/the-most-revealing-swimwear/

 

[ToJesusMyHeart]

One of her friends (and fellow vlogger) has explained it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fzqO5A-S9M

ermagerhd! which Carmel of JMJ did Sr. Anna enter? Elysburg? Valparaiso?

[EmilyAnn]

ermagerhd! which Carmel of JMJ did Sr. Anna enter? Elysburg? Valparaiso?

 

I don't know! I doesn't say in the comments either, I expect she left that vague on purpose. 

[ToJesusMyHeart]

:bounce:

[MarysLittleFlower]

Mary's Little Flower,

 

I respect the fact that you are a recent convert who has been affected by your conversion in such a way that modesty is very important to you.  You recognize that you had not dressed modestly in the past and are struggling to do that now, and for that I commend you.  I believe the Holy Spirit is guiding you in this area.  Continue to look towards the Church and Her Saints, because they will not fail you.

 

Do avoid the extremes, though.  Pray to recognize what true modesty is.  You dont' want to listen to the opinions of those who are very scrupulous when it comes to modesty.  (They believe every modern style is wrong, and immoral.)  You definitely don't want to listen to the opinions of those who think modesty is relative.  (They believe there are no such things as immodest dress.)  The Church is not extreme, but very balanced in this matter.

 

I will keep you in my prayers as I have been.  I love converts :)  the zeal you all have remind me to never take our Faith for granted.   :)

 

thank you DS :)

 

I've decided to speak to my priest about this and how much of modesty is objective, and then I can follow my priest's advice.

 

I wouldn't say it's extreme to want to cover your knees and shoulders, - I think even though everyone is used to seeing knees and shoulders, there's the issue of customs and where our society is going. Also, the more I get used to modesty, some of the de-sensitization goes away and I do see how showing certain parts of the body could affect the imagination. Maybe we could be used to something but it could still affect people. Also, there's the issue of an outfit being modest even if we do things like raise our arms, walk, sit down, etc, - it needs to stay modest, which might require more fabric.

Papist, do you think the native people pictured are exhibitionists? Do you think the man pictured chooses to wear a loincloth instead of something else he could wear, because the loincloth is sexually provocative?

 

On the other hand, do you think the Hollywood starlet pictured is an exhibitionist? Do you think she chooses to wear a long-sleeved, long-hemmed dress slit up her thigh because it is sexually provocative?

 

That's why.

You're speaking about intent... intent is important, but - imo it is possible to be immodest in ignorance. For example, if a girl wears a tiny little skirt because she was brought up to wear them and doesn't realize they are immodest: her ignorance might diminish her culpability, but it's still immodest. That's why it's important for mothers to teach their daughters modesty :)

 

before, there was also a quote  by a Pope that modesty should be judged not by any society, but the most virtuous one... probably a Christian one then. (truly Christian, not the modernism/relativism we see today). When Christianity was a major part of our culture, men and women wouldn't want to wear certain things that are in fashion today. There's a reason, I think, why miniskirts were never worn anywhere in the Christian world, until last century.

[MarysLittleFlower]

Its rather odd, papist.  Especially when the French guy who created the bikini couldn't find a decent woman who would model them for him.  He had to rely on strip tease dancers to do that.    It didn't take off.  Catholic countries banned them (awww, we had no disillusions about modesty back then,) and the majority of the world stuck to the more decent swimsuits on the market.  

 

In order to sell the bikini,  the creator had to advertise them as "liberation" for todays woman.  It worked.  And with the help of Hollywood starlets, the bikini became accepted.  Beaches used to have decency rules.  Those were shot down with the dawn of the bikini.  And women everywhere decided to justify swimming in their bra and underwear so they can get a great tan.  

 

To be honest, not even I bat my eyes at how nude people get at the beach.  I've been totally de-sensitized and don't even notice people.  (That and the fact I'm at the ocean looking in the waves the whole time to make sure I don't see a dorsal fin.)   I'm afraid we have all become more and more de-sensitized to immodesty.  But that doesn't take away the fact that these outfits are in fact, immodest.  

 

Perhaps we are moving towards total nudity at beaches?  Perhaps in 200 years or so,  mankind will walk around totally naked.  who knows.... I'm pretty sure decent Catholics will not follow the trend.  They will be mocked and ridiculed to no end...

 

 

I heard the French designer had to pay prostitutes for model his bikinis.  I remember when I went to Germany in 1998 for two week. I saw in a newspaper stand on the sidewalk a topless woman on the front page visible from inside the newsstand. Me and my sister were like what the..... Our two German friends were puzzled to why we thought that was shocking. They saw no problem. Hence, the desensitization. Then back at his apartment while getting ready to go out he walked around is in only his underwear (speedo type) and she in her bra and panties, and walking around like ho-hum no big deal. 

 

Faithful Catholic will always be mocked and ridiculed. Adding one more is not going to make much a difference. Being mocked and ridiculed for being faithful to the Catholic Church, which I equate to be faithful to Christ, helps me unite myself to Christ....and I need all the help I can get in that regard. 

 

wow! I think that shows the effect of desensitization - which I agree we all have  - because nowadays, so many wear bikinis.

 

I think maybe what i'm trying to say in this thread is that what happened to bikinis, happened to some other things as well that are not bikinis but are not modest either.

[MarysLittleFlower]

aw I'll miss SheisCatholic's videos :(  though it's understandable and must be a sacrifice, after spending so much time on them :)

[Nihil Obstat]

I was just thinking.

I think that it is probably meritorious for someone, especially a young Catholic, to want to go 'above and beyond' the call of duty with regards to the modesty of their clothing. I think it is clear that our culture promotes a highly immodest and extremely objectifying conception of the body, and in my opinion especially the female body. Therefore I think that if a young Catholic girl were to want to be especially modest in her clothing choices, perhaps more modest than she is strictly obligated to be, she might in that way act as a witness to the Catholic understanding of the role of the body in the context of the whole human person as a creature of God.

I can sufficiently nuance that thought if anyone wants to discuss it further. Otherwise I am sure you can decipher what I am getting at.

[EmilyAnn]

I was just thinking.

I think that it is probably meritorious for someone, especially a young Catholic, to want to go 'above and beyond' the call of duty with regards to the modesty of their clothing. I think it is clear that our culture promotes a highly immodest and extremely objectifying conception of the body, and in my opinion especially the female body. Therefore I think that if a young Catholic girl were to want to be especially modest in her clothing choices, perhaps more modest than she is strictly obligated to be, she might in that way act as a witness to the Catholic understanding of the role of the body in the context of the whole human person as a creature of God.

I can sufficiently nuance that thought if anyone wants to discuss it further. Otherwise I am sure you can decipher what I am getting at.

 

While this may be true (I'm still thinking about if I agree), what I find objectionable is not people who choose, for whatever reason, to dress in a stricter way. What I do find objectionable is people who dress in a strict way and act as if that is the only way in which to dress modestly (and usually reduce modesty to just how women dress).

[MarysLittleFlower]

I'm not reducing modesty to how women dress........ just saying that dress is part of it.

 

I'm going to ask my priest if I'm correct in my interpretation of modesty :)

Edited June 7, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[Nihil Obstat]

While this may be true (I'm still thinking about if I agree), what I find objectionable is not people who choose, for whatever reason, to dress in a stricter way. What I do find objectionable is people who dress in a strict way and act as if that is the only way in which to dress modestly (and usually reduce modesty to just how women dress).

So are you arguing that modesty in clothing choices has no prescriptive element, or just that we should not talk about it?

[EmilyAnn]

So are you arguing that modesty in clothing choices has no prescriptive element, or just that we should not talk about it?

I am not arguing either of those things, and I would really appreciate it if people stop putting words in my mouth. 

[Basilisa Marie]

While this may be true (I'm still thinking about if I agree), what I find objectionable is not people who choose, for whatever reason, to dress in a stricter way. What I do find objectionable is people who dress in a strict way and act as if that is the only way in which to dress modestly (and usually reduce modesty to just how women dress).

 

This, I think, is the heart of the modesty debates.  

 

Most people here know that modesty is important, and that there are some kinds of clothing that are never acceptable to wear. Some women feel called to wear skirts and dresses exclusively, some feel called to cover their shoulders and knees.  While that's wonderful, perfectly fine, and all of that, the truth is that that's not the Church's official standard of modesty. The standard isn't so strict.  

 

It's like saying heroic virtue is the baseline requirement for everyone's basic daily practice.  If that were true, it wouldn't be heroic.  We're all called to be saints, but we're not all called to be saints in the exact same way.