The Carmelite's Day

[graciandelamadrededios]

I have to catch some sleep too! 

[AnneLine]

Sleep?   what is that?   ;)

[Chiquitunga]

thanks from Chiqui too for the info on the two Annes :like: hopefully now in Heaven they are reconciled, of course  :saint:

[graciandelamadrededios]

I sure they are reconciled now.  St. Teresa is there to mediate!

[graciandelamadrededios]

The rivalry of Anne of Jesus (Lobera) and Anne of St. Bartholomew (Garcia) started when latter sided with Doria during his plan to tamper the constitutions of Nuns.

 

 

[Teresa Mary]

I see this topic hasn't been discussed in a while (and I read some of it), but I was wondering if I could get more info to finish this particular chapter in the Carmelite novel I am writing about St. Philomena.....I have looked everywhere I can think of, online and off, and not able to find the answer I am looking for :sos: How does a Sister, who is called to speak to the Prioress in her office, announce her presence at the door ~ and how does the Prioress respond?  I'm anxious to finish this novel so I can send it to the publisher.  Thanks, everyone! :priest:

[Pia Jesu]

I see this topic hasn't been discussed in a while (and I read some of it), but I was wondering if I could get more info to finish this particular chapter in the Carmelite novel I am writing about St. Philomena.....I have looked everywhere I can think of, online and off, and not able to find the answer I am looking for :sos: How does a Sister, who is called to speak to the Prioress in her office, announce her presence at the door ~ and how does the Prioress respond?  I'm anxious to finish this novel so I can send it to the publisher.  Thanks, everyone! :priest:

 

Congratulations on the book, Teresa Mary!  It will be so interesting to read about the Carmelite and St. Philomena "connection"!  Not to de-rail the thread...but, you may want to look at our parish's website

http://www.parish.holyspiritrcs.org.  Our pastor has a great devotion to the young saint and attributes

many miracles--large and small--to her intercession.  In fact, we have recently become one of the many international centers dedicated to her (Archconfraternity of St. Philomena, #61).  Fr. John has visited

Mugnano del Cardinale, Italy...and said Mass at the shrine that houses her miraculous statue.  He can be directly reached via e-mail at frjohnrocus@holyspiritbrighton.com!  Hope you get your question answered (soon) about how a Carmelite nun announces her presence at a Prioress' door!  Again, it's one of those interesting things that gives us a "glimpse" into that most beautiful enclosed life.

 

[Pia Jesu]

Perhaps an invocation (to St. Philomena) is made when a nun knocks on the prioress' door.  I remember reading that the saint's

intercessary powers are often made known through "knocking sounds."  Sts. John Mary Vianney, Padre Pio, popes and many

priests had (or have!) a devotion to her!  Her picture and chaplet are in front of me right now! 

 

[Teresa Mary]

Perhaps an invocation (to St. Philomena) is made when a nun knocks on the prioress' door.  I remember reading that the saint's

intercessary powers are often made known through "knocking sounds."  Sts. John Mary Vianney, Padre Pio, popes and many

priests had (or have!) a devotion to her!  Her picture and chaplet are in front of me right now! 

 

Thank you so much for the posts.  I have been a devotee of St. Philomena since I was 15; am currently trying to revive this.  I am also named after her in the Carmelite Third Order.  I, too, have been privy to her three knocks in my own life, and I will never forget the day I heard them.

[Chiquitunga]

Hmm... I'm not sure exactly what she would say according to their traditional customs, but if I find anything in the Ceremonial I'll let you know. I think Gracian would be the best at answering this.

[Pia Jesu]

Thank you so much for the posts.  I have been a devotee of St. Philomena since I was 15; am currently trying to revive this.  I am also named after her in the Carmelite Third Order.  I, too, have been privy to her three knocks in my own life, and I will never forget the day I heard them.

 

Again, I don't mean to de-rail this thread, +Teresa Mary, but I, too, belong to the Secular Carmelites

(actually still in formation)!  And I'm very curious to know if our dear St. Philomena (a name which means "the loving song") is invoked when a Carmelite nun has to knock on her prioress' door! 

Chiqui and Gracian are most generous in sharing their knowledge of the Carmelite Order on VS...

so, I'm sure you'll have an answer soon.

[Teresa Mary]

Again, I don't mean to de-rail this thread, +Teresa Mary, but I, too, belong to the Secular Carmelites

(actually still in formation)!  And I'm very curious to know if our dear St. Philomena (a name which means "the loving song") is invoked when a Carmelite nun has to knock on her prioress' door! 

Chiqui and Gracian are most generous in sharing their knowledge of the Carmelite Order on VS...

so, I'm sure you'll have an answer soon.

 

I don't think it is, Pia, but I am trying to get some insight into the Carmelite life as it is so I can finish my novel.  As you may know, novels are filled with fictuous details.  However, my novel is part reality and part fiction.  I'd appreciate it if insight on the Carmelite life could be given going forward, rather than going off topic.  Thanks!  Oh, and the name "Philomena" actually means "Daughter of Light," as the saint herself told several people in revelations granted to them.
 

Edited March 28, 2014 by Teresa Mary

[Chiquitunga]

I looked through the Ceremonial I have from 1930 and haven't found anything yet. My best guess for right now is that she would knock on the door and say "Mater Benedicte" (Mother, bless me) which is how someone in the novitiate addresses her Novice Mistress and Prioress. But I am not sure about a solemn professed nun. Hopefully Gracian might weigh in here if he has anymore more specific.

 

This book on St. Teresa Margaret is written much like a novel, http://www.amazon.com/God-Love-Saint-Teresa-Margaret-ebook/dp/B005GLG7IC  and I wonder if you might find a specific example of this in there as the author tried to include details that were true to Carmelite life in the Saint's times like this in her narrative as well. I haven't read this one yet however, though I do have it, so I will try to search through it for you when I get the chance also, if you do not own this book already. God bless!

[Teresa Mary]

I looked through the Ceremonial I have from 1930 and haven't found anything yet. My best guess for right now is that she would knock on the door and say "Mater Benedicte" (Mother, bless me) which is how someone in the novitiate addresses her Novice Mistress and Prioress. But I am not sure about a solemn professed nun. Hopefully Gracian might weigh in here if he has anymore more specific.

 

This book on St. Teresa Margaret is written much like a novel, http://www.amazon.com/God-Love-Saint-Teresa-Margaret-ebook/dp/B005GLG7IC  and I wonder if you might find a specific example of this in there as the author tried to include details that were true to Carmelite life in the Saint's times like this in her narrative as well. I haven't read this one yet however, though I do have it, so I will try to search through it for you when I get the chance also, if you do not own this book already. God bless!

 

Thank you for that information!  I will find it quite useful, I'm sure. :) However, I haven't gotten that far in the story yet; she is still a postulant, in Day Two of the cloister, as she just got there the day before. :saint: I would really like to see that Ceremonial, though, if I can ever find a copy anywhere; books like that are so  hard to find these days!

[Chiquitunga]

No problem! I will keep searching, but just thought I'd share this one for now. I remembered a scene from the Teresa de Los Andes movie where she walks into the Prioress' office and greets her with something, though I didn't remember. Here it is though, and it is the ordinary greeting for Carmelites, "Praised be Jesus Christ!" (which it is customary that the younger nun, in years of profession I believe, says first, with the older one responding "Now & forever!") as I'm sure you know of.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igtC-PT0nZc#t=3208

 

However, my best guess is still a couple knocks with "Mater Benedicte" for now :like:

[Chiquitunga]

Praised be Jesus Christ! Okay, just letting you know, I have combed more carefully through the Ceremonial (& Constitutions) and couldn't find anything more than what Gracian has posted from them here.

 

7. The Nuns when they meet should incline the head and reverently give the salutation of the Order:  the younger saying, Praised be Jesus Christ!, the other answering, Now and forever.

 

8.  The Nuns in speaking with our Fathers use the title Your Reverence; with the Brothers, Your Charity.  They do the same among themselves, using the first title with the Mothers, and the second with all the rest.  But they should not, in speaking of themselves, say Our Charity, Our Reverence, nor We, but simply, I have done this, I have said that.  They should not call one another simply by the name, but say Mother N. or Sister N.  The Prioress should not be called by her own name but by that of her office, that is, Our Mother Prioress,  or simply Our Mother.  The Sub-prioress also is called by the name of her office; Mother Sub-prioress.  The Novices and the newly professed, as long as they are under the direction of the Mistress, give her the title of Mother and Your Reverence, even though she be only a Sister.  When naming our Father General, the Vicar General, the Procurator General or the Provincial, they say Our Father General, Our Father Vicar General, Our Father Procurator General, or Our Father Provincial.  They say Our Father X fro the Definitors General; these, as well as the ex-Generals and ex-Procurators General, enjoy the title of Our Father during their whole life.

 

I also skimmed through the book on St. Teresa Margaret, as well as A Few Lines to Tell You and My Beloved, and found nothing. 

 

 

The book, "Following the Path of Divine Love" that recently came out about Carmel has been the most detailed book about the life of Carmel and the customs and I have found it very helpful for someone discerning with Carmel or preparing to enter at some time.

 

 

I wonder if perhaps this book would have the answer...  I will be on the look out anyway, and ask around, and let you know if I find anything :detective:

[Teresa Mary]

Praised be Jesus Christ! Okay, just letting you know, I have combed more carefully through the Ceremonial (& Constitutions) and couldn't find anything more than what Gracian has posted from them here.

 

 

I also skimmed through the book on St. Teresa Margaret, as well as A Few Lines to Tell You and My Beloved, and found nothing. 

 

 

 

 

I wonder if perhaps this book would have the answer...  I will be on the look out anyway, and ask around, and let you know if I find anything :detective:

 

Ok.  I hope someone can find something.  If not, I will continue using my imagination (as the story is a novel, anyway :smile3: ) to describe everything.  However, I really wish I could see a copy of the pre-1930's Breviary they must have used.

[truthfinder]

For some reason that I cannot put out of my mind, I've thought that the sister wouldn't say anything, just knock on the door, and the other would respond "Deo gratias" indicating they were to enter - but this is just what my brain has spit out, so take it with a huge chunk of salt.

[Chiquitunga]

That sounds like a very good guess as well :like: It makes sense that the Nun would not speak.

 

I just tried to search that out really quick, and see a Prioress is letting a secular (how non-religious are referred to in their Ceremonial) know she is there in the parlor with a "Deo gratias"  I'm not sure exactly what this is however, fiction/non-fictional, a little of both

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=011FAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA109&lpg=PA109&dq=deo+gratias+carmelite+prioress&source=bl&ots=vyT3Bppe5f&sig=rZQKwFUmxp7stPFBIS9239vzk_g&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CUY3U-bTGoWzqgGSjIHgCg&ved=0CE4Q6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=deo%20gratias%20carmelite%20prioress&f=false

[Chiquitunga]

Ok.  I hope someone can find something.  If not, I will continue using my imagination (as the story is a novel, anyway :smile3: ) to describe everything.  However, I really wish I could see a copy of the pre-1930's Breviary they must have used.

 

I've never seen a copy of that breviary myself, which would have been a OCD version of the Roman Breviary. I have seen an O.Carm. one though.

 

Probably if you made something up, no one would have a clue you did. But also, since she's a new postulant, you could have her making a mistake perhaps. :)

 

I've asked a couple people who were in Carmel for a while, so we'll see if they have anything to add. God bless!