Muslim Brotherhood Sets St. George Church Ablaze

[Era Might]

There is nothing absurd in pointing out the inconsistencies in your position. Are we supposed to defend the innocent or not? I believe that we are to do all that we reasonably can in order to protect those in danger from further harm. Should people have done more to protect the Jews in Nazi Germany? Yes. The murder of 6 million innocent people is a terrible crime, a crime against God and man. I just do not like seeing the same type of thing happening in Egypt and other Middles Eastern countries. Christians are being persecuted in that part of the world, and people should not be afraid to speak the truth. Sadly, many are hiding behind political correctness, and that is - as I see it - a form of cowardice. The Muslim Brotherhood is a terrorist organization that wants to force the Copts to convert to Islam, or at the very least by the jizya, and I do not believe that that is just. People should be speaking out about that oppressive reality, and many are not. In fact, many people seem afraid to say anything about it at all.

 

Say all you want about it, but the world does not revolve around your personal sympathies. Horrible things happen every day everywhere in the world. Just because you are horrified at something does not solve complicated political realities.

[Era Might]

I don't believe comparing the Muslim Brotherhood to Nazi's is really all that absurd. The MB has connections, roots and similar ideology to that of Nazi Germany and were heavily influenced by them.

 

Sorry, but I don't have the patience to debate a violation of Godwin's law.

[Apotheoun]

Perhaps my disagreement with you is due to a misunderstanding of your position. Let me explain myself better. When we side with an armed group, it becomes easy to fall into the whole "ends justify the means" idea. It's also easy to justify the bad they do by explaining the bad stuff the other side has done in the past/continues to do. This isn't a good way of thinking about things. I'm particularly peeved by this because it happened to me.

 

EXAMPLE:

 

The Lebanese Forces have been wildly misrepresented in the history of the Lebanese civil war by sympathizers of the Palestinian cause. I used to support this group because I believed that it's intentions during the Lebanese Civil War were good (for the most part). Whenever anyone brought up the Sabra and Shatila massacre, I'd mention that these events were a response to other massacres that people weren't well aware of. I soon realized later that, regardless of how true my claim was, I was essentially excusing one bad action by bringing up others. We can get so caught up in supporting a certain group or cause that we try to justify actions that we normally wouldn't otherwise.

My position has nothing to do with the "ends justifying the means"; instead, I simply support the traditional Christian doctrine that force - commensurate with that of the unjust aggressor - can be use morally in defending the innocent. Do I think that every member of the Muslim Brotherhood should be rounded up and shot? No, of course not. Do I think that the Muslim Brotherhood should be allowed, through violence and intimidation to return to power in Egypt? No, and the force necessary to prevent that outcome can be morally used. The fact that they are not in power but are still burning down Churches and killing Copts and raping Coptic (and even in some cases Muslim) women, is enough to support the suppression of the Muslim Brotherhood, and other efforts to prevent it from being allowed (at least for a period of time) to be politically active. The Bavarian government did the same thing to the Nazis, sadly of course the Nazis eventually were allowed to assume power in Germany, and we all know how that ended.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Apotheoun

[KnightofChrist]

Sorry, but I don't have the patience to debate a violation of Godwin's law.

 

I can't help that it is an historical fact the Muslim Brotherhood is a terrorist organization that has many links and roots to Nazi Germany. Should it be kept secret because it annoys you? Or because others abuse the comparison to Nazis? I really think that is unwise. Historical facts shouldn't be ignored/hidden/unspoken just because you don't have the patience for facts that you don't like to hear.

Edited August 15, 2013 by KnightofChrist

[CatholicsAreKewl]

My position has nothing to do with the "ends justifying the means"; instead, I simply support the traditional Christian doctrine that force - commensurate with that of the unjust aggressor - can be use morally in defending the innocent. Do I think that every member of the Muslim Brotherhood should be rounded up and shot? No, of course not. Do I think that the Muslim Brotherhood should be allowed, through violence and intimidation to return to power in Egypt? No, and the force necessary to prevent that outcome can be morally used. The fact that they are not in power but are still burning down Churches and killing Copts and raping Coptic (and even in some cases Muslim) women, is enough to support the suppression of the Muslim Brotherhood and the prevent of its being allowed (at least for a period of time) to be politically active. The Bavarian government did the same thing to the Nazis, sadly of course the Nazis eventually were allowed to assume power in Germany, and we all know how that ended.

 

I'm not saying that force is bad. I'm disagreeing with the way they're applying it and to whom they're applying it to. We shouldn't justify the deaths of unarmed people, especially women and children.

[Apotheoun]

Sorry, but I don't have the patience to debate a violation of Godwin's law.

The fact is that the Muslim Brotherhood does have a fascist outlook. As far as Godwin's opinions are concerned, they are just that, his opinions, and no one has to agree with him. He is not some kind of infallible expert. You may subscribe to what he thinks, that is within your power through the exercise of free will, but that doesn't bind anyone else to agree with you in doing so.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

I'm not saying that force is bad. I'm disagreeing with the way they're applying it and to whom they're applying it to. We shouldn't justify the deaths of unarmed people, especially women and children.

Was the violence, in the way it unfolded, the only way to have approached the matter? Probably not, although it has to be admitted that the Muslim Brotherhood protesters did not take a non-violent approach to the matter, and that probably brought about an escalation of the violence. But then the Muslim Brotherhood is not the St. Jude's Hospital Charity, it is, and always has been, a violent organization.

[Era Might]

I can't help that it is an historical fact the Muslim Brotherhood is a terrorist organization that has many links and roots to Nazi Germany. Should it be kept secret because it annoys you? Or because others abuse the comparison to Nazis? I really think that is unwise. Historical facts shouldn't be ignored/hidden/unspoken just because you don't have the patience for facts that you don't like to hear.

 

Well if it's a fact in your mind I guess that settles it.

[KnightofChrist]

I'm not saying that force is bad. I'm disagreeing with the way they're applying it and to whom they're applying it to. We shouldn't justify the deaths of unarmed people, especially women and children.

 

Youm7, an Egyptian news outlet is reporting the 'protesters' were armed.

 

http://youtu.be/OkXdoasAVik

 

http://youtu.be/bS1OEF1Cep4

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/MubasherYoum7?feature=watch

 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=494713310623199&set=np.30818322.100000859694777&type=1&theater&notif_t=notify_me

[Apotheoun]

The Muslim Brotherhood's stated goal is to return to power. And - as I said before - they are not a benign charity group. They are willing - and quite able - to use violence to achieve their goal. I think it is important to remember that Egypt really is in the midst of a civil war.

[Era Might]

The Muslim Brotherhood's stated goal is to return to power. And - as I said before - they are not a benign charity group. They are willing - and quite able - to use violence to achieve their goal. I think it is important to remember that Egypt really is in the midst of a civil war.

 

And if nothing else, Christianity is about taking sides in a civil war in a country we do not live in halfway around the world.

[Apotheoun]

And if nothing else, Christianity is about taking sides in a civil war in a country we do not live in halfway around the world.

I am not talking about American intervention. I am talking about supporting the Christian minority by helping them though charitable and political channels. I do not want to see the destruction of the Coptic Orthodox Church, and that is one of the many goals of the Muslim Brotherhood. It does not matter to me that Egypt is half way around the world. The body of Christ is under assault, and Christians should be doing all that they reasonably can to help their brothers in the faith.

[Apotheoun]

As St. Paul realized, when you kill Christians you attack and kill Christ again.

[Era Might]

I am not talking about American intervention. I am talking about supporting the Christian minority by helping them though charitable and political channels. I do not want to see the destruction of the Coptic Orthodox Church, and that is one of the many goals of the Muslim Brotherhood. It does not matter to me that Egypt is half way around the world. The body of Christ is under assault, and Christians should be doing all that they reasonably can to help their brothers in the faith.

 

Each man has his own life to live. If you feel like your life is bound up with their plight, then live your life accordingly, give all the aid you wish, and accept all the consequences. But I do not see the world as a medieval crusade.

[arfink]

I can't help that it is an historical fact the Muslim Brotherhood is a terrorist organization that has many links and roots to Nazi Germany. Should it be kept secret because it annoys you? Or because others abuse the comparison to Nazis? I really think that is unwise. Historical facts shouldn't be ignored/hidden/unspoken just because you don't have the patience for facts that you don't like to hear.

 

Sauce plz?

 

[KnightofChrist]

Well if it's a fact in your mind I guess that settles it.

 

I'm not an X-man, I don't have the ability to make my thoughts into historical facts.
 

[Apotheoun]

Each man has his own life to live. If you feel like your life is bound up with their plight, then live your life accordingly, give all the aid you wish, and accept all the consequences. But I do not see the world as a medieval crusade.

I am a Christian, and so I do not believe that each man is an island, an individual in isolation. Salvation is an ecclesial reality. As Jesus said, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?"

[Era Might]

I am a Christian, and so I do not believe that each man is an island, an individual in isolation. Salvation is an ecclesial reality. As Jesus said, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?"

 

I am not Coptic Orthodox.

[Apotheoun]

I am not Coptic Orthodox.

As an Eastern Catholic I am one with the Coptic Orthodox. We share one and the same baptism, we share the same Body and Blood of Christ in the Eucharist. The Copts are my brothers.

[Era Might]

As an Eastern Catholic I am one with the Coptic Orthodox. We share one and the same baptism, we share the same Body and Blood of Christ in the Eucharist. The Copts are my brothers.

 

As I said, each man has his own life to lead. If you identify with Copts because they are Copts, that is your life. Just don't make the mistake of thinking the world does or should revolve around your conceptions. Give your witness.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Era Might