Muslim Brotherhood Sets St. George Church Ablaze

[Apotheoun]

As I said, each man has his own life to lead. If you identify with Copts because they are Copts, that is your life. Just don't make the mistake of thinking the world does or should revolve around you.

I am a Christian, and so I cannot agree with your individualist viewpoint. The Church's doctrine of the Trinity is an icon of mankind's unity as persons within one nature. We are - as scripture teaches - our brother's keeper.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Aloysius]

now that I'm stuck inside by military curfew I guess I have nothing better to do than argue on the internet lol.  honestly, I don't understand why a military backed by millions of protesters is a "coup", but if those millions of protesters had taken up arms themselves it would've been a "revolution".  the fact is that it was a mix between revolution and coup... if Sisi had not stepped in, many of those people in the military along with many of the people that were on the streets may have had to be a revolutionary militia, there was no feasible way Morsi could've stayed in power and the actions of the military were justified I think.  the Morsi government was awful, many of the people I've talked to here that participated in the 2011 Tahrir Square protests would have rather had Mubarak than Morsi.  The MB had no right to rule the way they did, they had the mistaken impression that just because you're elected you have the right to govern others however you and your supporters want to, which is a fallacy many supporters of democracy in the West constantly fall into but which has had disastrous consequences for Middle Eastern minority groups... and actually, not just the Copts, but also many Muslims were absolutely fed up with the MB's garbage.  there is no way Egypt could have survived in the years that are formative of a constitution with these thugs in power.

 

it's pretty certain that many of the Rabaa protesters were indeed armed, about 50 police/soldiers were killed in the clashes.  that said, I saw first hand the public side of the Rabaa square that most of the journalists could see, which was ostensibly peaceful, so there were peaceful people there.  but people who were at the Tahrir protests have blamed the MB for having those women and children in harms way--pointing out that at Tahrir, whenever there was a known threat coming, they were sure to get the most vulnerable people out.  the MB protesters there were keeping those people in harms way, full well knowing what was coming.

 

and there were people being held and tortured in some of those tents according to some human rights organizations and various charges from people who survived the torture.  the Rabaa camp could not be allowed to fester.

 

but as I said, El Baradei had proposed much better plans which would not have been as much of a stirring of the hornet's nest.  I think this could have been done so much better.

 

anyway, I am confused though, is someone actually suggesting US intervention?  that would be absolutely insane at this point--all we have now is some riots and chaos that amounts to an internal matter that Egyptian security can deal with.  the Egyptian military needs to provide stability and move along the previously stated roadmap.  the Muslim Brotherhood has lost so much support, and continues to lose so much support among the Egyptian population, there's no way they would win in a fair election anymore.

 

there is no need for any kind of crusade, something which would only make things so much worse.  As I saw on a Coptic friend's twitter feed: "they think by burning churches they are taking revenge against Egypt.We happily sacrifice our churches for #Egypt".  I think most Copts would totally reject anyone calling for some kind of crusade to defend them, though they happily accept the military's protection which is absolutely necessary.

[Era Might]

I am a Christian, and so I cannot agree with your individualist viewpoint. The Church's doctrine of the Trinity is an icon of mankind's unity as persons within one nature. We are - as scripture teaches - our brother's keeper.

 

Yes, we are. But again, you seem incapable of realizing that just because you see things a certain way doesn't mean everyone does or should. Keep your brother as you see necessary, and I will do the same.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Era Might

[Apotheoun]

My prayers for you Aloysius. I pray that God keeps you safe.

[Apotheoun]

Yes, we are. But again, you seem incapable of realizing that just because you see things a certain way doesn't mean everyone does or should. Keep your brother as you see necessary, and I will do the same.

I know that you do not care about the Copts, and there is nothing I can do - beyond prayers for you - to alter your indifferentism on the matter. You think that the Copts, a small minority in Egypt, should just stand up for themselves and stop the persecution. But I doubt you have ever really faced the kind of hardships that they are facing. I know that I have not. You have my prayers.

[KnightofChrist]

Sauce plz?

The Muslim Brotherhood – Nazi Connection

...

In the 1920s, an Egyptian school teacher, Hassan al-Banna, gathered discontent Muslims to found the Muslim Brotherhood.

According to John Loftus, a former prosecutor with the US Justice Department, “Al-Banna formed this nationalist group called the Muslim Brotherhood. Al-Banna was a devout admirer of Adolf Hitler and wrote to him frequently.”

Loftus adds that Al-Banna was so persistent in his “admiration of the new Nazi Party that in the 1930s Al-Banna and the Muslim Brotherhood became a secret arm of Nazi Intelligence. With the goal of the Third Reich to develop the Muslim Brotherhood as an army inside Egypt.”

While initial growth of the Muslim Brotherhood was moderate, the organization’s membership rolls – coinciding with rising anti-Semitism in Europe — by August 1938 had swelled to more than two hundred thousand members. By the end of World War II the Muslim Brotherhood had around half a million members.

Al-Banna idealized death also preached a love of death.

Source: http://www.educationnews.org/breaking_news/106849.html#sthash.copATLJl.dpuf

 

Herf: The Nazi Arabic language radio broadcasts during World War II to the Middle East simultaneously attacked Zionism and the Jews. The absurd and false notion that an international Jewish conspiracy existed and was a major force in world politics was a key theme of Nazism’s wartime propaganda. Conspiratorial thinking focused on the supposed power of the Jews persisted after the war in the Middle East. The pejorative and hateful depictions of Jews in Nazi propaganda, the belief that they were inherently evil and that they should be punished as a result found echoes in the postwar publications of the Muslim Brotherhood, the writings of Sayyid Qutb, the postwar activities of Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Egyptian government’s propaganda under Nasser and in the Hamas Covenant of 1988.

...

Al-Masry: You claim Nazi propaganda influenced contemporary Islamic movements, how so?

Herf: The lineages are traceable from al-Husseini through Qutb, the Muslim Brotherhood and related organizations such as Hamas and Hezbollah. The Hamas Covenant of 1988 contains a host of the same absurdities about European history that one could find in Nazi propaganda of the 1940s. The blend of Jew-hatred with hatred of the United States and liberal democracy that one finds in the public statements of Al Qaeda also recall similar sentiments from the Nazi era.

Source: http://www.egyptindependent.com/news/nazi-propaganda-arab-world

 

1939-1954
Main article: History of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt (1939-1954)

Links to the Nazis began during the 1930s and were close during the Second World War, involving agitation against the British, espionage and sabotage, as well as support for terrorist activities orchestrated by Haj Amin el-Hussaini in British Mandate Palestine, as a wide range of declassified documents from the British, American and Nazi German governmental archives, as well as from personal accounts and memoires from that period, confirm.[6] Reflecting this connection the Muslim Brotherhood also disseminated Hitler's Mein Kampf and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion widely in Arab translations, helping to deepen and extend already existing hostile views about Jews and Western societies generally.[7]

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Muslim_Brotherhood_in_Egypt

[Era Might]

I know that you do not care about the Copts, and there is nothing I can do

 

Of course you know that. You are God, after all. Too bad you're a weak god and can't do anything about it.

[Apotheoun]

Of course you know that. You are God, after all. Too bad you're a weak god and can't do anything about it.

I am sorry, but I am simply reading your indifferentist comments, and your attempts to upbraid the Copts for not doing more for themselves. I am sorry that my comments have hurt your feelings, but no one is threatening you with violence as is presently the case with the Copts. No one is burning down your home or Church. Sorry that I hurt your feelings.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Era Might]

I am sorry, but I am simply reading your indifferentist comments, and your attempts to upbraid the Copts for not doing more for themselves. I am sorry that my comments have hurt your feelings, but no one is threatening you with violence as is presently the case with the Copts. No one is burning down your home or Church. Sorry that I hurt your feelings.

 

Well I will await your appeals for charity from Christians around the world for your assault on my feelings.

[Aloysius]

how is any of this bickering helpful?  O.o

[Era Might]

how is any of this bickering helpful?  O.o

 

It's the Internet. :/

 

Are there any restrictions on your Internet access over there?

[Aloysius]

no, but I get it by USB modem which goes in and out within the place I live.  luckily the place I live has a large area behind the wall (it's a Catholic school actually) so I can actually walk around outside... apparently the curfew hasn't kept people from shooting off fireworks from the streets though haha.

[Era Might]

I'm not an X-man, I don't have the ability to make my thoughts into historical facts.
 

 

Nazism was a movement born at a particular moment, driven by one man and centered on him. The Muslim Brotherhood is a political party in a broadly Muslim society which has been Muslim for more than a thousand years, and is more a transnational movement than a national one, as Nazism was. If there is any comparison here (and I do not like historical comparisons), it is with the Bolsheviks, the great enemies of the Nazis.

 

Gandhi read Henry David Thoreau. It does not follow that the movement for Indian independence (which is commemorated today, incidentally) can be compared with American independence. Two completely different movements, context, countries, religions, continents, histories, languages, and so on and so forth.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Era Might

[KnightofChrist]

Nazism was a movement born at a particular moment, driven by one man and centered on him. The Muslim Brotherhood is a political party in a broadly Muslim society which has been Muslim for more than a thousand years, and is more a transnational movement than a national one, as Nazism was. If there is any comparison here (and I do not like historical comparisons), it is with the Bolsheviks, the great enemies of the Nazis.
 
Gandhi read Henry David Thoreau. It does not follow that the movement for Indian independence (which is commemorated today, incidentally) can be compared with American independence. Two completely different movements, context, countries, religions, continents, histories, languages, and so on and so forth.

If you want just to ignore the deep roots and connections to Nazism that the Muslim Brotherhood has then it is pretty pointless to continue this discussion. The Muslim Brotherhood worked with and conspired with Nazi Germany, it embraced and circulated Hitler's mein kampf, and it's founder adored Hitler. Edited August 15, 2013 by KnightofChrist

[Era Might]

If you want just to ignore the deep roots and connections to Nazism that the Muslim Brotherhood has then it is pretty pointless to continue this discussion. The Muslim Brotherhood worked with and conspired with Nazi Germany, it embraced and circulated Hitler's mein kampf, and it's founder adored Hitler.

 

I agree, it's pointless to continue this discussion.

[KnightofChrist]

BREAKING NEWS:
Burning of Virgin Mary Monastery in Deir Mawas, Minya, Bishop Tadros Monastery in Fayoum and Sohag Diocese’s services building.
Brotherhood supporters continue to demolish and burn Atfih Diocese in Giza [Greater Cairo], a large number of churches in Minya [Upper Egypt], Fayoum, Assiut, Suez, Arish [Sinai], Luxor [south Egypt], the Bible Society headquarters in Cairo, and the Franciscan school in Suez.

Sohag Diocese burnt and destroyed

Sohag (Egypt), 14 August /MCN/ by Nader Shukri

A number of Islamists broke into the St. George Diocese in Sohag and set fire to the church. Fire trucks arrived too late, after the fire had consumed the building.

H.G. Bishop Bakhoum stated that MB supporters had stormed the church, setting fire to the services building and looting all its contents, in addition to assaulting the priests who were inside.

Speaking to MCN, eyewitnesses said police forces and firefighters arrived late at the scene, while a number of MB supporters hijacked a fire truck to prevent it from putting the flames.

Vehicles transporting armed MB groups were seen by eyewitnesses, as they threatened to attack Copts and unarmed citizens on the streets.

Several other governorates in Upper Egypt have witnessed attacks on Copts and churches, after security forces broke up Brotherhood sit-ins at Rabaa el-Adaweya and Nahda squares. In Fayoum, the Friends of the Bible Association headquarters was burned, while MB supporters opened fire on a nuns’ school in Beni Suef, and Archangel Michael’s Church in Assiut was besieged. Meanwhile, several villages in Minya have also witnessed attacks targeting Copts’ houses and churches..

Two churches attacked in Assiut and Wasta, army protects Two Saints Church in Alexandria

Egypt, 14 August /MCN/ by Nader Shukri

The Muslim Brotherhood and other Islamist current supporters assaulted the Archangel Michael Church in Assiut [Upper Egypt], on Wednesday, as well as properties of citizens and Christians in the area.

Security was able to gain control of the situation in the two streets, Namees and Gomhuriya, after clashes with MB supporters around the governorate’s central building.

In Wasta City, Beni Suef [Upper Egypt], Father Angelos Maqar, priest of St. George Church in the village, reported, “Militants hurled stones at the church, breaking its windows.”

In Alexandria, “Troops secured the church and closed the streets leading to it in case of any violence,” said Joseph Malak, lawyer for the families of Two Saint Church bombing victims.

“At the same time, Christian youth went out to several areas to protect the churches, including the church of Maximous and Damadious in Street 45, Sidi Beshr.”

He added there are now violent clashes between security forces and Islamists at al-Qa’ed Ibrahim Mosque.

Churches in Egypt had canceled morning masses, especially in the provinces of Minya, Assiut and Fayoum, and closed their doors in anticipation of any violence that would target the congregations.

It is worth mentioning that Brotherhood supporters have been rioting throughout Egyptian governorates since security forces broke up the sit-in at Rabaa el-Adaweya Square in Nasr City, Cairo. The sit-in was dismantled at 6.00 am on Wednesday morning.

Attacks are focused on police stations, churches and Christian homes, particularly in the Upper Egypt governorates, such as Minya. Islamists broke into Virgin Mary and St. Abraam Monastery in Delga village. They set fire to three churches and six services buildings, and marched in the village chanting against the Copts, surrounding their homes and assaulting them with stones, as security was completely absent.

The crowd also set fire to a church services building of St. Mina the Wondrous Church in the south of the province, and attacked the Evangelical Baptist church in Beni Mazar.

The Islamists also besieged churches in Samalout and Mallawi, and set fire to two churches in the Fayoum governorate [southwest of Cairo] and attacked Coptic homes and burned churches in Suez.

Greek Church and two Coptic schools in Suez burned

Suez (Egypt), 14 August /MCN/ by Nader Shukri

A number of Muslim Brotherhood and Gamaat Islamiyya extremists burned down the ancient Greek Church on Paradise Street in the Suez governorate, in addition to a monastery and a school. They also set fire to the Franciscan school on el-Geish Street.

Governorates throughout Egypt have witnessed attacks on Copts and churches, after security forces broke up Brotherhood sit-ins at Rabaa el-Adaweya and Nahda squares. In Fayoum, the Friends of the Bible Association headquarters was burned, while MB supporters opened fire on a nuns’ school in Beni Suef, and Archangel Michael’s Church in Assiut was besieged. Meanwhile, several villages in Minya have also witnessed attacks targeting Copts’ houses and churches.

Islamists storm St. Mary and St. Abraam Monastery in Upper Egypt, burn three churches and six buildings inside

Minya (Egypt), 14 Augut /MCN/

Islamists attacked St. Mary and St. Abraam Monastery in Delga village, Minya [Upper Egypt]. The crowd stormed the monastery and set fire to three churches and six services buildings inside.

Supporters of former President Mohamed Morsi have been rioting throughout Egyptian governorates since security forces broke up the sit-in at Rabaa el-Adaweya and Nahda squares. The sit-in was dismantled at 6.00 am on Wednesday morning.

Attacks are focused on police stations, churches and Christian homes, particularly in the Upper Egypt governorates, such as Minya.

The crowd also set fire to a church services building of St. Mina the Wondrous Church in the south of the province, and attacked the Evangelical Baptist church in Beni Mazar. Islamists also besieged churches in the cities of Samalout and Mallawi.

Father Selwanes Lotfi, priest of St. Mary and St. Abraam Church told MCN, “The Islamists set fire on the monastery, which includes three churches. They stormed the monastery, setting areas on fire as they went, including the historical St. Mary Church, St. George Church and St. Antony Church.”

Witnesses said the house of Fr. Angelous, also a priest of the church, was burnt. They blamed the absence of security forces for the current deteriorating situation witnessed in the village, and noted that a state of panic dominates the Copts of the village due to the siege imposed on their houses by the Islamists.

Christians of the area called on security authorities to intervene and prevent a potential massacre.

Islamists marched to St. Mary Church in Deir Mawas, chanting against Copts and H.H. Pope Tawadros II. They assaulted the church with stones, breaking glass and windows of the building, and attacked a Coptic-owned shop.

A witness told MCN that the march was organized to protest the breakup of the Rabaa el-Adaweya and Nahda squares demonstrations. They attacked all that was owned by Copts.

Security forces prevented an attempt to storm the village of Beni Ahmed and attack its Coptic residents, exchanging fire with Islamists. The Coptic residents of the villages of Rida, Beni Mazar and Maghagha faced consecutive attacks from Morsi supporters, who opened fire indiscriminately on Christian homes.

Islamists threw Molotov cocktails at the Evangelical church in Abu Helal, south Minya, burning the church and its services building.

A witness said that masked people on motorcycles used automatic weapons and birdshot on St. Mina’s Orthodox Church, and then threw Molotov cocktails at the Evangelical church.

Pastor Samir Sadek, head of Minya's Evangelical Synod, told MCN that a number of extremists attacked the church. He rebuked the absence of the security forces, praising the role performed by the residents who exerted their efforts to contain the fire. He signaled that the fire trucks failed to reach to the church due to the narrow street.

The crowd also set fire to a tourist ferry owned by the Coptic Evangelical Authority and another owned by Coptic businessman Samuel Thabet Zaki.

MB supporters surround Virgin Mary Church in Qena

Qena (Egypt), 14 August /MCN/

A number of Brotherhood supporters surrounded the Virgin Mary Church in West Qena [southern Egypt], locking worshipers inside the church. This attack is one of the organized violent measures taken by the MB and Islamic movements, which have increased significantly after security forces broke up the sit-ins at Rabaa el-Adaweya and Nahda squares.

Speaking to MCN, H.G. Bishop Kyrillos, Nag Hammadi’s bishop, said he learned of MB gatherings headed to Abu Tesht, which is about 35 kilometers from Nag Hammadi, to attack the local diocese.

He added he had contacted security forces to protect Copts’ places of worship and their properties.

“Dozens of MB supporters and Gamaat Islamiyya surrounded the Virgin Mary’s Church in Qena,” explained a security source to MCN, pointing out that church officials had to close its doors for fear of being attacked by extremists.

The city of Qena has witnessed widespread riots by Islamists, while police forces used tear gas to disperse demonstrators who attempted to storm the Qena governorate office, while other Islamist groups surrounded the court building in Qena, which was evacuated of its employees.

Islamists demolish and burn Coptic diocese in Atfih amid security’s absence

Giza (Egypt), 14 August /MCN/ by Nader Shukri

Islamists looted, demolished and burned Atfih Coptic Diocese in the Giza governorate [Greater Cairo], during a lack of full security forces.

Hundreds besieged the diocese, setting fire to the building, looting its contents and have now begun to destroy the remaining structure.

The Copts were able to smuggle Fr. Makorious, priest of the diocese’s church, during the attack.

The Church called upon the military to intervene and protect the Copts and diocese in Atfih. Violence in the city is quickly escalating as news spread of the death of an Atfih Islamist during the military’s break-up of the Brotherhood sit-in in Rabaa el-Adaweya Square in Cairo, this morning.

 

Source: http://us5.campaign-archive1.com/?u=c2eaf6afddb7f87586e752295&id=e300ecaf33&e=43175592f3

 

[CatholicsAreKewl]

now that I'm stuck inside by military curfew I guess I have nothing better to do than argue on the internet lol.  honestly, I don't understand why a military backed by millions of protesters is a "coup", but if those millions of protesters had taken up arms themselves it would've been a "revolution".  the fact is that it was a mix between revolution and coup... if Sisi had not stepped in, many of those people in the military along with many of the people that were on the streets may have had to be a revolutionary militia, there was no feasible way Morsi could've stayed in power and the actions of the military were justified I think.  the Morsi government was awful, many of the people I've talked to here that participated in the 2011 Tahrir Square protests would have rather had Mubarak than Morsi.  The MB had no right to rule the way they did, they had the mistaken impression that just because you're elected you have the right to govern others however you and your supporters want to, which is a fallacy many supporters of democracy in the West constantly fall into but which has had disastrous consequences for Middle Eastern minority groups... and actually, not just the Copts, but also many Muslims were absolutely fed up with the MB's garbage.  there is no way Egypt could have survived in the years that are formative of a constitution with these thugs in power.

 

it's pretty certain that many of the Rabaa protesters were indeed armed, about 50 police/soldiers were killed in the clashes.  that said, I saw first hand the public side of the Rabaa square that most of the journalists could see, which was ostensibly peaceful, so there were peaceful people there.  but people who were at the Tahrir protests have blamed the MB for having those women and children in harms way--pointing out that at Tahrir, whenever there was a known threat coming, they were sure to get the most vulnerable people out.  the MB protesters there were keeping those people in harms way, full well knowing what was coming.

 

and there were people being held and tortured in some of those tents according to some human rights organizations and various charges from people who survived the torture.  the Rabaa camp could not be allowed to fester.

 

but as I said, El Baradei had proposed much better plans which would not have been as much of a stirring of the hornet's nest.  I think this could have been done so much better.

 

anyway, I am confused though, is someone actually suggesting US intervention?  that would be absolutely insane at this point--all we have now is some riots and chaos that amounts to an internal matter that Egyptian security can deal with.  the Egyptian military needs to provide stability and move along the previously stated roadmap.  the Muslim Brotherhood has lost so much support, and continues to lose so much support among the Egyptian population, there's no way they would win in a fair election anymore.

 

there is no need for any kind of crusade, something which would only make things so much worse.  As I saw on a Coptic friend's twitter feed: "they think by burning churches they are taking revenge against Egypt.We happily sacrifice our churches for #Egypt".  I think most Copts would totally reject anyone calling for some kind of crusade to defend them, though they happily accept the military's protection which is absolutely necessary.

 

Thank you for sharing. 

[Didacus]

 

there is no need for any kind of crusade, something which would only make things so much worse.  As I saw on a Coptic friend's twitter feed: "they think by burning churches they are taking revenge against Egypt.We happily sacrifice our churches for #Egypt".  I think most Copts would totally reject anyone calling for some kind of crusade to defend them, though they happily accept the military's protection which is absolutely necessary.

 

I think that's one of the best comments on this thread so far.

 

 

By the way - peaceful doesn't mean to just roll over and let yourself die. And also, defending yourself is not an act of aggression either - it is an act of justice. But it must be done with the purpose of protection and in due proportion.

[Ice_nine]

Unlike most people in this thread I am not an expert on the situation in Egpyt.

 

My prayers are with those unjustly persecuted/slaughtered/threatened. That's all I can rilly say.

[KnightofChrist]

Communiqué of the Coptic Orthodox Church of Egypt on ongoing events


The Coptic Orthodox Church of Egypt is following closely the unfortunate incidents occurring in our nation and confirms its strong support of the Egyptian law enforcement, the armed forces, and all civil Egyptian institutions in confronting violent armed organizations and dark malicious forces, both internal and external. The attacks on our government entities and peaceful churches are terrorizing our citizens both Coptic and Muslim. These actions stand against all religions, morality, and humanity.

We value the stance of the friendly and loyal countries who understand the nature of these events. We strongly denounce the fallacies broadcasted by the western media and invite them to review the facts objectively regarding these bloody radical organizations and their affiliates instead of legitimizing them with global support and political protection while they attempt to spread devastation and destruction in our dear land. We request that the international and western media adhere to providing a comprehensive account of all events with truth, accuracy, and honesty.

Our sincere condolences are extended to all the victims and martyrs of duty that gave their lives, and we pray for the recovery of all those injured and afflicted. We persevere in our strong national unity and repulse any attempts to polarize our great nation into a secular conflict. We absolutely reject even partial foreign interference in our internal affairs. As the hand of evil extends to burn, kill and destroy; the Hands of God are nearer to protect, strengthen, and build. We have full faith and confidence in the Divine intervention that will navigate the Egyptian people in this delicate time of our history to a better tomorrow and a brighter future filled with justice, peace, and democracy that the people of the Nile Valley so rightly deserve.

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2013/08/communique-of-coptic-orthodox-church-of.html?m=1