Homily: Marriage Is Good, But Celibacy Is Better

[abrideofChrist]

Sacra Virginitas- an Encyclical from Pope Pius XII.  Also quoted in the page linked to by Friar John Paul in the original post- did you read it?

[Nunsense]

Now WHY do you think the Popes would bother to defend this DOGMA that was not explicitly said out of Jesus Christ's mouth but has been the constant teaching of the Church?  Seems to me that I recall that it is because the Church teaches that for those who are called to it, the consecrated state is more efficacious way in and of itself for bringing people to salvation.  This is important for people to know so that they can better understand what it is that they might be called to.  It is very hard to understand the consecrated state and flippant statements that everyone is called to holiness aren't helpful when one is sincerely discerning.  It's like saying the presidency, the army, and the navy are all ways of serving the country.  But don't worry.  All that matters is charity.  Focus on charity and you'll know what you need to be.  That is simply not true.  You need to know what it means to hold the office of president or what the difference is between the army and the navy. 

 

 

Well, I can see that living the life of a religious or a priest would certainly be very helpful in one achieving sanctity - environment is very important. But of course, that doesn't mean there haven't been very unholy priests or nuns or popes. God gives us tools to help us in our quest for holiness, and He calls each of us in a different way to achieve that.

 

Actually, the Presidency, the army and the navy are all ways of serving the country and I don't think one is superior to another in quality. They each have different levels of responsibility and 'to he whom much is given, much is expected' but everyone has been given different gifts to use and God has a different plan for each one of us. The President should see himself as a servant of the people, just as the Pope sees himself as a servant of the servants of God. I  don't see Pope Francis waving his arms and telling everyone that because He is Pope, he is superior to everyone else. That is what I object to. Jesus washed the feet of the disciples to show them that even the Master serves.

 

Perhaps our terminology is all that separates us. Perhaps you see words like 'better' as simply meaning 'more of a servant'. I don't know what is in anyone's heart just as they don't know what is in mine.

 

Perhaps I am reacting this way because of my experiences, just as others will react according to their own. But I have seen pride, vanity, ambition for power and seeing oneself as better than others in convents, and it has sickened me that such a precious vocation should be inflicted with such attitudes. It is only human of course, that is why the Apostles quarreled about it. But it is sad too. Our Lord was so humble. And yet we still vie for position and prestige in our little lives, instead of focusing on the Kingdom.

 

As for discerners, if they are entering religious life or some other vocation simply to be 'better' than someone else - it is the wrong motivation. If we want to talk about the beauty and the joy of being called to love and serve God, then yes, by all means, let us encourage vocations - but not because we somehow think it will make us superior to someone else. Just my take on things.

 

--- And this just came through via email

 

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Sacra Virginitas- an Encyclical from Pope Pius XII.  Also quoted in the page linked to by Friar John Paul in the original post- did you read it?

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No, I didn't read it- I clicked on the link and it seemed to be a video, but I didn't see the other link to the quotes. I have gone back and read them now and they are lovely. I personally agree that human marriage is a foreshadowing of our mystical marriage between Christ and His Church. So we have no debate there. And I personally feel called to a sole relationship with Jesus as well.

 

I think where I object to what is being said, is not so much in what Friar JP posted as it is quite obvious that our relationship with God is higher than our relationship with other humans, as the way in which marriage is presented as a second-best option. for some people, this is not true. God calls some people to celibacy, but He also calls some people to marriage. And they should not made to feel that somehow they are inferior to those in a consecrated state. If a person is discerning a religious vocation or the priesthood and they are made to feel that marriage is for those who can't make it or won't try to make it as a religious/priest etc, then they might make a choice based on those feelings of pressure or guilt or some other motivation that isn't simply love and a response to God's call. Can't you see that it can't possibly help a person to discern if they are made to feel that they will somehow be less if they choose marriage? That may be God's plan for them, and the best way for them to achieve sanctity. Look at the Martins! They were definitely called to marriage, and not to celibacy - because they gave birth not only to Therese, but to her sisters as well.

 

I think we should be on the same side, but we are just expressing things differently perhaps.

 

Discernment shouldn't be about superiority.

Edited August 17, 2013 by nunsense

[cmaD2006]

I myself wasn't starting an argument but a fact that several people chose to interpret as starting an argument.  I like what he has to say, but I do not care for your double standard.  I am just waiting for everyone to tumble onto this thread and start saying how deeply inferior they feel if they are not in the consecrated state.  If this doesn't happen, then I'm forced to conclude that you and the rest were singling me out for a personal attack!  Why is it that you can read what he has linked to without taking it as a personal attack on someone's worth (when I clearly all over the place indicated that I was simply speaking of objective realities) and yet you and others can't seem to extend the same courtesy to me?  So, either you guys start getting offended by a fact he is linking to, or quit the double standard of behavior you are exhibiting en masse towards myself!

 

Wow.  Just wow.  I'm tired of the argumentative sort of attitude (and yes I am saying this directly).

 

I'm not the only one that has said something ... and if I'm not the only one, then maybe, maybe it is the way you are stating things.

 

Look -- you also stated a snarky remark.  That was uncalled for.  That's why I posted.

 

I will pray for you, and that the Lord may open your eyes. 

[Nunsense]

I really love the bit at the end of the article, which explains the two states of life in a way that doesn't offend at all. In this we can see the natural vocation and the supernatural one - both in God's plan but taking different paths to the same point.

 

This winds the two vocations so closely together that they are essential to each other to 'prepare the bride, the church, for her final marriage to God in heaven'.

 

Perhaps it is all in the delivery, not in the message?

 

 

 

Eearthly Marriage vs. Heavenly Marriage

 

 

The Church teaches us that marriage between a man and woman is an earthly foreshadow of the mystical marriage between Christ and His Church. It is through this earthly foreshadow [of marriage] that men and women can learn more about what they will be eventually called to in heaven. In this sense, marriage can be considered a natural vocation, and celibacy a supernatural one, i.e., it is the vocation that is not of this world, but instead points to the next. The Church teaches us that consecrated men and women are in a sense beacons directing mans eye upwards towards heaven, where earthly marriage does not exist (cf. Matt. 22:30; "At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven"). In other words, those who live celibate here on earth "skip" the earthly foreshadow in favor of the heavenly marriage. As Christopher West states; "far from devaluing sexuality and marriage, true Christian celibacy actually points to their ultimate fulfillment."

John Paul II, Theology of the Body: "Is not the spousal love with which Christ “loved, the Church, ” his Bride, “and gave himself for her” equally the fullest incarnation of the ideal of “continence for the kingdom of God” (see Mt 19:12)? Is it not precisely in this love that support is found for all those—both men and women—who choose the same ideal and thus desire to link the spousal dimension of love with the redemptive dimension, according to the model of Christ himself? They desire to confirm with their lives that the spousal meaning of the body—of its masculinity and femininity—a meaning deeply inscribed in the essential structure of the human person has been opened in a new way by Christ and with the example of his life to the hope united with the redemption of the body. Thus, the grace of the mystery of redemption also bears fruit—even more: bears fruit in a particular way—with the vocation to continence “for the kingdom of heaven.”

 

In this sense, each vocation is closely related to each other, since they are simply different paths to the same end; like two sides of a coin. They each are designed to sanctify humanity by different means, and prepare the bride, the church, for her final marriage to God in heaven. We can think of discerning a vocation as like standing at a crossroads, where each path is separate and unique, yet they all eventually arrive at the same point. The path that is most common to men, is earthly marriage, because it is the "primordial sacrament", i.e., it is a kind of mini-incarnation of the spousal love of God on earth. In other words, it is through marriage and the family that most men learn about all the attributes of God; His communial relationship, His fidelity, His exclusivity to the other, His self-sacrifice, His life-generating love, etc.

 

 

[abrideofChrist]

Nunsense, tell me just how Pope Pius XII is saying that people who are not virgins are inferior as persons to people who are.  Where in the whole Encyclical does he say this?  Where in this entire thread have i said this?  Where have I EVER stated people are inferior?  I do recall talking about EQUALITY in my other thread but I also talked about OBJECTIVE superiority of state.  The Apostles were jostling for a personal superiority of holiness (level of charity) NOT a superiority of state (level of state) when they fought before Jesus.  When Jesus gave hard truth teaching about marriage and divorce many didn't bother to listen to what He had to say, and ponder it with care to see how it could be true.  They just gave a knee jerk reaction of rejection and walked off.  When the Church teaches that it is a dogma that the consecrated STATE is objectively superior to the married STATE then we need to understand how this is true rather than knee jerk reject this DOGMA which we must believe.

[abrideofChrist]

While we're at it, let's talk about homosexuality.  It is a grave disorder.  Does this mean that the homosexual person is sinful?  Or inferior to a heterosexual person?  Could it possibly be that we are talking about an objective state that is disordered and not refer to the personal holiness of people in such a state in life?

[Nunsense]

Nunsense, tell me just how Pope Pius XII is saying that people who are not virgins are inferior as persons to people who are.  Where in the whole Encyclical does he say this?  Where in this entire thread have i said this?  Where have I EVER stated people are inferior?  I do recall talking about EQUALITY in my other thread but I also talked about OBJECTIVE superiority of state.  The Apostles were jostling for a personal superiority of holiness (level of charity) NOT a superiority of state (level of state) when they fought before Jesus.  When Jesus gave hard truth teaching about marriage and divorce many didn't bother to listen to what He had to say, and ponder it with care to see how it could be true.  They just gave a knee jerk reaction of rejection and walked off.  When the Church teaches that it is a dogma that the consecrated STATE is objectively superior to the married STATE then we need to understand how this is true rather than knee jerk reject this DOGMA which we must believe.

 

 

It seems we aren't able to send PMs right now - at least I can't for some reason, so I will just say here...

 

 

If you read my last post, you will see that it is about the way something is express that makes all the difference  - the article that was quoted closed with wonderful comments about the state of marriage and its relationship to the state of celibacy. Read it again and again and try to understand that it didn't try to force the concept of superiority down people's throats but tried to express how each state had its own beauty and why they are different.

 

I said before, I don't think we disagree about much of the content of this topic - but we obviously have different ways of expressing ourselves. I have seen personally what damage pride and vanity and a sense of superiority can do - even to those who have consecrated their lives to God or live in a  religious community. Instead of giving off the sweet odor of sanctity - the environment becomes toxic with the stench of pride in all its forms.

 

Please just try to understand that it is the way that you express yourself that comes across badly and influences how others respond to you.

 

Try not to take things so personally though as this thread wasn't about you to begin with but somehow you have hijacked it to become about you.

 

 

Edited August 17, 2013 by nunsense

[BarbTherese]

A thread bound to get people hot under the collar. :sos:

 

  The Opening Post is a strictly theological objective statement only and one that The Church supports AS an objective theological statement.  I don't think that Jesus every said at all that celibacy for The Kingdom was superior to marriage for The Kingdom............it was those that came after Jesus.  Jesus simply said -

 

"Matthew Ch19
For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mother' s womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it."

 

The theology of celibacy as a theological objective study developed from those words and the fact that Jesus was and is regarded as celibate.

 

Celibacy for The Kingdom is a gift of God.  But then marriage is God's Gift to mankind too. 

 

Which is better?

   Depends on how you want to look at the question - as an isolated objective theological question i.e."Which vocation is superior, celibacy or non celibacy?"

 

  Or subjectively and theologically i.e. "Which is the best vocation for me?"

[Nunsense]

Since this is in VS and not the Debate Table, I doubt that the OP ever thought it would degenerate into such conflict. I have said what I intended to say, too many times probably, so I am backing out of this thread. I know that this is seen by some as cowardice but I really don't feel comfortable when things start to become simply the restating of opinions and making then personal comments.

 

Every one of us is beloved by God and when we get to heaven, it won't matter what state of life we lived, but how we lived it. :) Peace.

[abrideofChrist]

Which is better?

   Depends on how you want to look at the question - as an isolated objective theological question i.e."Which vocation is superior, celibacy or non celibacy?"

 

  Or subjectively and theologically i.e. "Which is the best vocation for me?"

 

Spot on.  It really does get ridiculous when someone could say "Marriage Is Good, But Celibacy Is Better" and people misunderstand that to mean that a personal level of holiness or level of dignity as a human being is at stake.  At some point, people need to learn the fine art of critical thinking.
 

Edited August 17, 2013 by abrideofChrist

[BarbTherese]

Superiority on the personal level does not really come into the question - except in regards to personal holiness in whatever personal vocation one might actually embrace from baptism onwards.  It just might be that a woman for example who chose marriage would make a mess of things because they just don't have the necessary qualities - and marriage especially with children demands very special qualities indeed.  It just might be the woman who chose religious life would make a mess of things if she entered religious life - because she just does not have the qualities and religious life demands some very special qualities indeed.

 

Where do necessary qualities come from - as Scripture and The Church states very clearly for us, good and necessary qualities for each vocation, whatever it might be, come from God.  In my own vocation of single celibate laity, I live alone and I get along fine with it, although never my choice - force of cirumstances.  I have the necessary qualities.  Another person far more holier than I may marry - they have the necessary qualities.

 

There is a very big difference, no comparison in fact, between thinking one has the necessary qualities for a particular vocation -  and then actually living out those imagined qualities in marriage or a religious vocation.  There is the testing and proving ground.  Not on the outside looking in, but through actual experience on the inside.

 

We are discussing all around this subject in the thread on the Dogmatic Constitution of The Church Lumen Gentium in the Transmundane Forum.

[BarbTherese]

I don't agree with the wording of the opening post at all.  I have not watched the video.

 

The Good Lord always answers prayer, but we don't always get the answer in our imagination.  I might, for example, ask for the heights of the Mystical Way in Mystical Marriage or Betrothal, whatever is the correct terminology.  I wouldn't know!  Doesn't mean my prayer will be answered just as I anticipate, but my prayer will be answered.  What I am really asking for is great holiness and if I am faithful all the way to the Grace that is The Lord's response to my prayer, then I will be very holy indeed.  Most of the time with The Graces of The Lord we do all stumble along in our response, rather than a fully faithful and perfect response.  And great holiness usually, not always, will ask great suffering, the Grace of great fortitude and strength, trust and confidence, Faith - and may for a very long period, perhaps even our whole lives.

When I ask for say (were I male) the Grace of celibacy and the priesthood, I am aspiring very high indeed and The Lord knows the heart of things.  What is in our hearts in both a positive and negative manner. The Lord will answer my prayer accordingly, but is under no obligation whatsoever to grant me celibacy and the priesthood.  This puts me in the control seat and not the way things are at all unless of course I defy The Lord.  May The Lord every forbid.  Amen.

If I am male and desire to be a priest, then I should go ahead and begin the journey and see where it leads.  If I don't have a desire to be a priest, then it might be that I am not called to be a priest.  Although I do know of religious vocations anyway that really started out on the left foot without any real attraction for quite a while.

Edited August 17, 2013 by BarbaraTherese

[BG45]

Pholks, the Vocation Station, primarily is used to discuss religious vocations, while the vocation of marriage is primarily discussed elsewhere.  Please try to keep this calm so it doesn't get moved to the Debate Table, which, as Nunsense said, Vocation Station is not.  As the article stated, both the religious life and marriage have their own contributions to the Church.  Personally, as a layman, I'm not going to wade into one being intrinsically better than another.  I'm not a theologian, but I think it might be best served to discuss the topic and homily the good Friar has posted, rather than get too personal. 

[BarbTherese]

Actually, to read from the link the OP gave from the subject heading (scroll down on the link) "Does this mean marriage is inferior?" would make a good discussion. http://religious-vocation.com/index.html  An informative read in the link is (subject heading) "Are all Created for Marriage " and the enlargement on that topic is in the affirmative.

 

And to just calmy discuss things rather than getting heated and personal is an excellent move at all times, I agree.  Jolly great practise for evangelising - learning to avoid any 'barbs and thorns' and stay with the nitty gritty and the subject(and avoiding the ire of dUSt/moderators and getting the thread closed).  Not always easy, I know to avoid the barbs and thorns especially if under personal attack.  Especially on a Catholic Discussion Site, getting negatively personal is not a good move as this is a very public forum on the internet.  We are witnessing to our Catholicism, our Faith - primarily it is a way of life, a way of being in this world.

 

Off me pulpit.......till next time. :rap:

 

Edited August 17, 2013 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

..........edit............

 

Every one of us is beloved by God and when we get to heaven, it won't matter what state of life we lived, but how we lived it. :) Peace.

 

Hit the nail right on the head - spot on! :)

[BarbTherese]

I did watch the video, curiousity got the better of me.  The Franciscan priest did rather remind me of the Franciscan who was our chaplain while I was in monastic life in my forties.  Father did pick, in the video, his words from Scripture to support what he intended to state.  The following quotation from Scripture, however, came to mind:

 

 

 

Luke Ch11 : "And I say to you, Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you.  For every one that asketh, receiveth; and he that seeketh, findeth; and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened.

And which of you, if he ask his father bread, will he give him a stone? or a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? [12] Or if he shall ask an egg, will he reach him a scorpion? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father from heaven give the good Spirit to them that ask him."

 

 

The Lord gifts to us what is best for us and at the very same time, mysteriously, it is the best for the whole universe.  Undoubtedly some have longed for a religious vocation and prayed for one ardently, but they have impediments to religious life and are turned away.  They pray ardently for good health and all the right qualities. Is their ardent prayer unanswered - not at all.  Is the answer they receive a positive answer.  Yes, it is the very best of answers.  The problem becomes for such a person "Am I prepared to accept God's Will in this matter or is it my way or I hit the highway?"  Unless it is the answer I want, I reject the answer as my answer.  And what The Lord is stating is "Not religious life" for the person (necessary health and/or qualities are missing).  Along those lines.  Unless I get precisely what I asked for, I reject what is offered as gift since it is contrary to what I want.

 

In the midst of the world's distractions, it can be easy to forget that our central message is The Cross.  I read something quite beautiful yesterday (forgot what I was reading) that suffering in our lives is an overflow of the Sufferings of Jesus into our own lives...........gift.  It is a very real honour to share in the Sufferings of Jesus - the redemptive act that opened Heaven for us.  This can be distasteful to our 'wordly pallet' - to the way we are conditioned into thinking of the facts of life and no one in this life is going to escape suffering in some form or other.  Jesus does not reject suffering, He embraces it though at the time His whole being revolted against it and He begs His Father to spare Him "but not My Will, but Thine be done".

 

I think Father knew what he wanted to state and picked his quotations to support his agenda.  And no real harm in this, we all do it.  Except that there were 'holes' in places in what Father had to state in his presentation/homily.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2013 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

We are all called to Chastity in our lives - some to virginal chastity or marital chastity, celibate chastity (and etc. if there are any other forms of Chastity).  Each, according to their vocation, are called to perfect Chastity in their lives in line with their own vocation.

Edited August 17, 2013 by BarbaraTherese

[MarysLittleFlower]

I'm kind of worried to say anything because it might be misunderstood...

I think that saying that a state of life is higher than another, is not pridefully stating superiority. It's talking about state of life objectively...

I don't know how exactly to interpret this passage, but I'm reminded, of Martha and Mary... Jesus said that Mary had chosen the better part.. not that Martha was bad, or worse personally, but that Mary had chosen the better part.

St Paul also says, he wishes everyone to be like him, and that it's better not to marry.

If it's God's will for someone to marry, that would be their path to holiness. But we're just talking about objective states.

In the link, this is even defined by Trent...

:)

[BarbTherese]

:like3:  Agree

Speaking on the objective theological level, celibacy is superior to a non celibate state.  It does help to explain what that means, that little inoffensive very big meaning word "objective", I think, which I think I did in a previous post.   The Church very firmly proclaims that on the objective theological level, celibacy is superior to non celibacy and states this in various places that are statements of sound Catholic Teaching.

 

But if I (subjective) aspire and even enter religious life (or a non celibate state) because it makes my vocation superior to other vocations (and I am not stating that anyone is doing this), I am making a very big mistake; however, if one should enter religious life with that motivation, one will probably eventually leave, or what is rather common : that motivation is purified more and more as formation continues.   There is a somewhat possibly subtle but important difference between entering religious life because I want to be the best versus I want to give Jesus the best that I can.   Neither are perfect motivations - the key is in those two words "I want".   Perfect motivation is an ardent desire to embrace and comply with God's Will in all things.

 

We are imperfect creatures and formation for all of us will continue all our lives no matter our vocation and related duties -  i.e. there is always room somewhere or other for improvement.  I read a beautiful homily by a Benedictine Prioress, which very sadly has been taken off the internet.  It ran that we are all saints and we are all sinners.  That the little nun who is so annoying because she is always talkative and distracting, is probably the very nun that is always so helpful and unselfish.  We are all saints somewhere or other, we are all sinners somewhere or other.  We all deserve a 'pat on the back' and a 'kick in the rear' somewhere or other.  

Edited August 17, 2013 by BarbaraTherese

[To Jesus Through Mary]

I wonder why there is this pressing need to discuss the "superiority" of religious life, when the whole idea is to die to oneself and become nothing in the eyes of the world as one consecrated them self to God. Seems a bit backwards on the logic of it all. Plus, being a jerk never proves your point or wins people to your "side".