Debate About Consecrated Virginity

[Sponsa-Christi]

sorry, double-post

Edited August 21, 2013 by Sponsa-Christi

[Pax_et bonum]

I can't respond to jumpfrog in the interest of charity (I'm too sassy for my own good sometimes ;) ), but my other post wasn't directed at you, Sponsa, just so you know. That's a good point that an aspiring CV might not have someone to keep her grounded like someone discerning with a religious community does. There's just been too many posts on VS about not over romanticizing religious life to the point that when I was talking with a VS'er, she immediately felt like she had to defend herself that she wasn't doing that, and I think that's awful. 

[Laurie]

This was supposed to be a fun thread!

 

As for the book, I've recommended Therese's book to any number of women. I don't think one of them has mistakenly over-romanticized her potential vocation, before or after reading the book. It's a practical book for a practical purpose. It's not meant to be a how-to-guide on initial steps in discerning the CV vocation. I imagine Therese didn't see a need to duplicate the wealth of resources the USACV website already offers on that score.

 

Another random point is that a woman discerning the CV vocation should have some real life experience. That will knock any romanticism right out of her! If she's developed a structured prayer life, grown in grace, supported herself financially, educated herself, found her apostolate, discerned her vocation, been faithful to it, all while being present to her family, her work, her obligations, her friends, and being generous to Our Lord in each moment of her day, it would be pretty hard for romanticisism to take root. I  think the nature of the CV vocation lived in the Church and in the world by a person discerning the vocation is a good antidote to romanticism.

 

Here's another point. I've met a lot of devout Catholic women in my life. I've never observed a general trend to over romanticize a religious or consecrated vocation. What I have seen is a trend, in those who are drawn to a religious or consecrated vocation to undervalue a lay or married vocation. That, I think, is the real problem. I think many devout, unmarried women out there have NO IDEA how hard it is to be a wife and mom. NO CLUE.
 

[Laurie]

Ok, I guess I took the thread off course again above, sorry! I should have read all the posts before commenting.

 

I do think the criticisms of Therese's book came across as catty and unfounded. First rule in reviewing a book: look at the author's intention.

 

As for planning the consecration day, I'm all for it. It's a feast! It's a time for family, the best and biggest family of all, the Church!

 

Sometimes Americans can be awfully dour about feast days. Whereas the Italians, they know how to have a magnificent feast, full of meaning. Chucking material elements out the window because they are a "distraction" isn't Catholic. It's Puritan. The idea is to infuse the feast with grace & meaning. Sure, it's a hard balance to strike. Sure, it's always possible to get sucked into materialism. But the answer isn't to cop out and over emphasize the spiritual. That's the easy way out.

 

The answer is to buckle down, in prayer and learning, and figure out how to plan a holy feast that will show the secular world what the marriage of spirit & matter is all about. That's what building Catholic culture entails.

 

It's a very American reaction to think a party has to be extravagant to be beautiful or that if it is beautiful it must be extravagant.

[Sponsa-Christi]

 

 

Another random point is that a woman discerning the CV vocation should have some real life experience. That will knock any romanticism right out of her! If she's developed a structured prayer life, grown in grace, supported herself financially, educated herself, found her apostolate, discerned her vocation, been faithful to it, all while being present to her family, her work, her obligations, her friends, and being generous to Our Lord in each moment of her day, it would be pretty hard for romanticisism to take root. I  think the nature of the CV vocation lived in the Church and in the world by a person discerning the vocation is a good antidote to romanticism.

 

Dear Laurie,

 

I know it seems like whenever we post on the same thread, that I'm always disagreeing with you. Please do know that this isn't deliberate!

 

The thing about consecrated virginity as a vocation is that you really can't have "lived experience" as a consecrated virgin until after you're consecrated. I totally agree with you that living as full a "consecrated" life as you can prior to consecration is important, but (for reasons which are hard to put into words) this isn't nearly the same thing as the experience of actually being a consecrated virgin. Even if your exterior life remains outwardly the same, being consecrated is a huge change--and not always an easy one.

 

I know I'm probably not going to be very convincing here, but if you're willing to take my word for it, I really do think that the "trappings" of the consecration day celebrations have the potential to be a serious distraction for even the most spiritually mature candidates. Yes, it is appropriate and fitting to have a beautiful celebration, and it can be good wholesome fun to do some of the party planning when you're actually approaching your consecration date. But when it's your own consecration you're thinking of, I think it is good to try to cultivate as much of a sense of detachment from the non-essentials as you possibly can. 

 

Also, I really wasn't trying to make a general criticism of Therese's book. I personally would not recommend it to someone who was just beginning to discern this vocation. But I also wouldn't recommend "The Dark Night of the Soul" to someone just beginning to take their prayer life seriously, and St. John of the Cross is one of my favorite saints!

 

[abrideofChrist]

The thing about consecrated virginity as a vocation is that you really can't have "lived experience" as a consecrated virgin until after you're consecrated. I totally agree with you that living as full a "consecrated" life as you can prior to consecration is important, but (for reasons which are hard to put into words) this isn't nearly the same thing as the experience of actually being a consecrated virgin. Even if your exterior life remains outwardly the same, being consecrated is a huge change--and not always an easy one.

 

I know I'm probably not going to be very convincing here, but if you're willing to take my word for it, I really do think that the "trappings" of the consecration day celebrations have the potential to be a serious distraction for even the most spiritually mature candidates.

This is disingenuous.  You claim on the one hand that the virgin is already a bride of Christ through this mysterious grace that somehow is given to her and the Consecration is nothing but a formal recognition of this, and now you are claiming the opposite, that a woman can't live consecrated life until she is consecrated.  What do you really believe?
 

[MarysLittleFlower]

This is such a polarizing discussion!

 

I kind of see it like this...

 

Obviously, the life itself is not about the dress. The main event is receiving the consecration. The spiritual component should be focused on primarily.

 

However also, sometimes it's hard not to think about this stuff. Like how we have a wedding dress thread for religious life... and girls think about their future weddings etc... I know it might just seem like a "girly" thing do to but it could also be because it's so symbolic. When we see that there's a dress, and a veil, and a ring, it's obvious what we're looking at. I like symbolism personally. For example in some orders, they receive the crown of thorns.. I think that's beautiful and so symbolic and helps us to understand something spiritual. I think we should focus on what is spiritual, but ceremony can contain symbolism that could be helpful for this. If someone wants to wear a pretty dress to look pretty and so that everyone would look at her and so that she would feel special, personally I don't think that relates to consecrated life at all and is probably even kind of opposed to it... but if she wants what is essentially her wedding day to be beautiful and special because of what it means to her, or because she likes the symbolism, that's fine....

 

In my opinion, the adornments of the bride that would please Jesus are her humility, love for Him, purity... but the dress is symbolic, just how white is symbolic for purity. If a person were to be Christ's bride, she would need to make sure that interiorly she is pleasing to Him... but the details that come with the consecration are to show the meaning of the event.

 

I think if a future bride thinks of the day when she would become fully her Bridegroom's, - of course she would want to make this a special day. As a related point, for the Total Consecration to Jesus through Mary, the person is advised to make the day special too: by giving Mother Mary a candle or flowers, and maybe wearing their blessed 'little chain' as a symbol.

 

Regarding what is appropriate for a consecration... I think personally, anything too modern fashionable would not fit as well. I think it's more beautiful if everything is done in a classical way. That's just my own feelings. I think it would be beautiful if the dress is very modest and simple and elegant - just to reflect the bride's purity. I personally wouldn't choose something strapless or even sleeveless, - I think it's beautiful for the bride to be more covered, because that symbolizes so well that she's a virgin and only meant for her Beloved.

 

Then there are some things that would just not make as much sense, to me at least, like throwing the bouquet, or of course anything inappropriate or not in keeping with perfect purity should not be used.

 

Just some thoughts  :)

Edited August 21, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[abrideofChrist]

Ima,

 

I am so sorry that your poor thread has been diverted from its purpose, especially since you have social anxiety.  Unfortunately, this is a topic which does polarize people and they can't take an innocent planning book recommendation from you or your desire to see the beautiful pictures of the Lord's brides without some women with agendas taking over.  I have more to say to Sponsa Christi and her followers in my thread because I can take the ill treatment and bullying some of these women like to dish out and it shouldn't be directed towards you.  I enjoy seeing the photos because they remind me of my own precious day when the Lord espoused me and of the consecrations of other CVs I have had the privilege to attend. God is very good to us to give us a powerful image of the Church's love reciprocating His own in the person of the CV.  The virgin brings both her spiritual adornments and her material ones to please her heavenly Bridegroom.  I remember reading about St. Therese preparing her wedding gown so to speak of virtues prior to entering the convent and later wearing an extremely expensive gown and lace for her physical bridal gown.  That same gown and veil would probably cost in the tens of thousands in modern money.  She knew this was to delight the eyes of Christ.

 

[beatitude]

Ima,

 

I am so sorry that your poor thread has been diverted from its purpose, especially since you have social anxiety.  Unfortunately, this is a topic which does polarize people and they can't take an innocent planning book recommendation from you or your desire to see the beautiful pictures of the Lord's brides without some women with agendas taking over.  I have more to say to Sponsa Christi and her followers in my thread because I can take the ill treatment and bullying some of these women like to dish out and it shouldn't be directed towards you.

 

 

Recently you were quite cuttingly sarcastic to BarbaraTherese, all for the crime of not understanding you fast enough. Barbara suffers from bipolar disorder (regularly mentioned on Phatmass) and I know from my work in mental health that this illness can make it a little harder for people to stay focused and to process information as fast as others. If SponsaChristi is a bully for not taking into account ImaLurker's social anxiety when critiquing this thread, what does that make you? Your own posts often come across as quite unkind, and I am not the first person to point this out to you - only you have brushed off every single person's comments on this as them just not interpreting you correctly.

 

One thing I have noticed about the CVs who post on Phatmass is that there is a tendency for you to all criticise and contradict one another every chance you get. You do it, SponsaChristi does it. You have both said in the past that this sort of 'discussion' is important to clear up misconceptions about the vocation, etc., etc., but sometimes it feels like you have all turned Vocation Station into your own personal battleground for airing whatever grievances you have with one another. A while ago Lillabett wrote that the treatment CVs have for each other on Phatmass is very disedifying, and I agree. It's not pleasant to watch you pull each other to pieces like this. I'm not saying this as a 'follower' of anyone, but as a long-time regular user of Phatmass who is tired of all the vinegar and venom that has been sloshing around here lately.

[Laurie]

Dear Laurie,

 

I know it seems like whenever we post on the same thread, that I'm always disagreeing with you. Please do know that this isn't deliberate!

 

The thing about consecrated virginity as a vocation is that you really can't have "lived experience" as a consecrated virgin until after you're consecrated. I totally agree with you that living as full a "consecrated" life as you can prior to consecration is important, but (for reasons which are hard to put into words) this isn't nearly the same thing as the experience of actually being a consecrated virgin. Even if your exterior life remains outwardly the same, being consecrated is a huge change--and not always an easy one.

 

I know I'm probably not going to be very convincing here, but if you're willing to take my word for it, I really do think that the "trappings" of the consecration day celebrations have the potential to be a serious distraction for even the most spiritually mature candidates. Yes, it is appropriate and fitting to have a beautiful celebration, and it can be good wholesome fun to do some of the party planning when you're actually approaching your consecration date. But when it's your own consecration you're thinking of, I think it is good to try to cultivate as much of a sense of detachment from the non-essentials as you possibly can. 

 

Also, I really wasn't trying to make a general criticism of Therese's book. I personally would not recommend it to someone who was just beginning to discern this vocation. But I also wouldn't recommend "The Dark Night of the Soul" to someone just beginning to take their prayer life seriously, and St. John of the Cross is one of my favorite saints!

 

Thanks, Sponsa Christi. I did get your original points. You explained them fine the first few times. I just didn't agree with them.

 

I wouldn't put a vocation to be a CV on the same level of marriage to a mortal in terms of not being able to really experience it until you are consecrated. There's a pretty huge difference between adjusting to life with another human being versus continuing in the prayer & life routine you have already established and that has already fed your soul and nourished your discernment. That said, no doubt there is a real difference between a woman before and after she's consecrated (kind of like my position that private vows do not a consecrated virgin make, huh? ;)).

 

But I don't think we should discount the experience of a good and holy and faithful life (in all the vocations, and in all levels of those discerning vocations) as the antidote to romanticism. Romanticism is immature. It might be mildly immature, and relatively harmless in many cases, but it's immature nonetheless.

 

To be frank, I think the romanticism argument on this thread is another straw man. It's easy to argue at length against a position that you yourself have constructed and have decided has premium importance. I just don't see the value in that. I know that's really blunt, but it's a pattern I'm seeing over, and over, and over.

 

I get some of the more minor points you are making, certainly. But again, I don't think anyone here thinks a CV's consecration day should be absorbed in materialism or that planning the day should be her focus. In my experience of the CVs and discerners I've met, this wasn't and isn't a problem. So it does seem like a lot of chatter about a non-issue (of course any single woman could be off track here, but any woman who really is absorbed by the consecration day isn't ready to be consecrated--but it's up to her bishop and others to figure that out, she would probably be evidencing that same immaturity in other aspects of her life as well).

 

In the illustration given, I don't see the point you are trying to make with St. John's Dark Night. I picked up the Dark Night of the Soul when I was 10. Not kidding! I got a lot out of even though much was above my head. I would think Therese's book would be similar, in that it has a lot of gems. You don't have to "see the entire picture" or have fully discerned the vocation to appreciate the gems.

 

Lastly, you did criticize Therese's book and you criticized it out of nowhere and not based upon what the book itself purports to do. You used it to launch your own ideas of what advice you think needs to be given to discerners and how you think her book detracts from true discernment in the begininning. Okay, so choosing that route was your choice but my point is just that I don't get it. It's not the way to do a good book review (i.e., fairly and objectively). Someone said it came across like you were making Therese's book about yourself. That is how it came across to me, too. For what it's worth, that's how it came across. Kind of like you needed to be the expert, too. But maybe starting your own thread on that would have been a good idea?

 

On that note, poor Ima, I'll stop! I've seen many beautiful photos but I think others have posted much of them. I'll see what I can find out there.

[Laurie]

 God is very good to us to give us a powerful image of the Church's love reciprocating His own in the person of the CV.  The virgin brings both her spiritual adornments and her material ones to please her heavenly Bridegroom.  I remember reading about St. Therese preparing her wedding gown so to speak of virtues prior to entering the convent and later wearing an extremely expensive gown and lace for her physical bridal gown.  That same gown and veil would probably cost in the tens of thousands in modern money.  She knew this was to delight the eyes of Christ.

 

Very true! Therese & her sisters are a lovely example of how to transform material things into prayer. Again, shunning material things is the easy way out. Figuring out how to bring glory to God through them and how to please Him in the planning of them is no easy thing. (Theresa of Avila also excelled at this. She had a terrific sense of what in the nuns' routine needed to be kept as she tramped all over Spain founding orders and what should be temporarily dispensed with when they were all in a wooden cart up to their ears in mud.) Sanctity really is made of such things and such decisions. That's because it takes a heart centered on Christ to see clearly and transform all things in Him. It's a lot easier to choose the lofty, "I'll only focus on the spiritual things" approach, but that approach is inherently un-Catholic.

 

Cultivating purity of intention in all things we do is the life long battle of holiness, of any vocation.

 

 

[MarysLittleFlower]

I think it's sad that we're all fighting like this in almost every single thread :( I hope that if there's an issue people can work it out through private messaging (I'm not sure if it's working now) just so that Ima's thread can continue?

 

I remember reading about St Therese too and how she wrote invitations in the style of 'wedding invitations', and things like that :) I didn't know that about her dress! I want to see if she mentions it in Story of a Soul...

[Rosita]

Bellisimas! I like how the pictures posted are from women of different nationalities. I accidentally got a 300 page wedding planning book in the mail; it was intended for the tenant before me. Along with the all beautiful pictures and ideas, it included practical advice for all sorts of things. 

 

I find it quite funny how you can be engaged to the true Bridegroom and just like any other bride, you will still get all kinds of wedding planning (solicited or unsolicited) advice   :hehe2:

 

BoC, You are blessed indeed! I hope you are able to see your struggles here as an invitation from God to grow in holiness and to identify more closely with your humble and crucified Spouse.

 

A priest once told a group of us about how there are two kinds of people in the world:  saints and saint-makers. The choice is ours.

 

 

 

[Sponsa-Christi]

Okay, this is my last post here...

 

After reading some of the recent posts, I just want to say that I very am sorry if I offended anyone. I wanted to share my point of view because I honestly though it could be helpful to some people. I never wanted to hurt anyone's feelings or to disturb anyone. 

 

Ima, I did not know you had social anxiety issues, and I truly did not mean to upset you.

 

For the record, while I stand by everything I said about the focus of discernment and approaching one's consecration in a sober way, as I mentioned at the beginning, I do like the idea of a thread of consecration photos!

 

So once again, I'm sorry for the disturbance...and carry on. 

[DameAgnes]

It's not what the vocation to marriage is about either, but do you go around reprimanding girls or young women for planning their weddings? I don't see anyone obsessing over it, and even if the material is the absolute smallest part, it is still a part of it.

 

This is something that really irks me. Of course we need to be grounded in reality, but there's nothing wrong with fantasizing about one's wedding, consecration, investiture, vows, ordination, or whatever. Romanticism is not objectively wrong. Marriage is romantic as is the consecrated life, and that's important not to forget even though both vocations are also challenging. People need to stop telling discerners to stop over romanticizing consecrated life as if they aren't allowed to see any romance in it at all. If someone really is over romanticizing the life, visiting and living the life of a consecrated person will cure that better than scoldings from a stranger on the internet.

 

 

I wasn't scolding. I was observing that an over-focus on the trappings seemed to counter the whole vocation.  Sadly I sometimes feel like the maturity level here at VS seems to have dipped quite a bit, and this thread really reinforced that feeling. But increasingly around here, ppl are not permitted to question anything or make an observation or voice an opinion without someone seething back at them. 

[Laurie]

Thank you, SC, for saying that.

 

MLF, about St. Therese’s dress, her mom was a lace maker. She made exquisite Alencon lace, running the business out of her home. Therese’s dress had some of her mom’s handiwork on it. I’ve often thought I’d like my wedding dress to have some Alencon lace, in tribute to the Mrs. Martin.

[DameAgnes]

People who think the vocation to consecrated virginity is overly romantic, please post elsewhere.  

 

 

Wow, That reads like "people who aren't falling in line with me, shut up and go somewhere else"...

 

And it's a mischaracterization of many who have dared to comment on the thread. At no time did I ever criticize the idea that there is "romance" in the vocation of CV. There is romance in every vocation, to a point, and there is nothing wrong with looking at pictures, either -- they're very nice to see, and I for one enjoy them. 

 

My observation had nothing to do with the pictures of consecrations, or the "wedding day" except to note that the thread was devolving into wedding gown pictures and "this  is how I'd wear my hair" discussions that seemed to me, yes, "little girlish" and pointedly materialistic. And so I dared to suggest that such posts might have the smallest thing to do with the vocation, and so now, I should just "post elsewhere" or shut up.

 

Very nice. 

 

Frankly, if my daughter thought she had a vocation and spent so much of her time gushing about which habit she wanted to wear, I'd wonder if she had a vocation, and I'd suggest she allow herself to mature a bit. And if she, in turn, told me to shut up because I was harshing her buzz, I'd ask her to consider whether she was proving my point for me. 

 

Edited August 21, 2013 by DameAgnes

[Pax_et bonum]

I'm sorry. I should have made it plainer that my post wasn't directed at you Dame, Sponsa, or anyone in particular. Similar comments to yours have been made on VS for as long as I've been here, and it really hit home to me how wrong that is when I was talking to another VS'er as I said in my previous post. Other threads talk about the more serious and more important side of consecrated virginity, so it's ok that a thread was made with the intention of posting wedding dress pictures or hairstyles even if it seems materialistic. However, the externals are important too because we are both body and soul. We can honor God with beauty, and there's nothing wrong with taking delight in that. It's so easy to misinterpret people on the internet since we have no cues from body language or tone of voice, so I hope you know that I write this with no ill will. Also, sorry for adding to the off-topicness of this thread, Ima.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Pax_et bonum

[MarysLittleFlower]

Thank you, SC, for saying that.

 

MLF, about St. Therese’s dress, her mom was a lace maker. She made exquisite Alencon lace, running the business out of her home. Therese’s dress had some of her mom’s handiwork on it. I’ve often thought I’d like my wedding dress to have some Alencon lace, in tribute to the Mrs. Martin.

 

wow, very nice! :)

[MarysLittleFlower]

I think that someone can be excited about the wedding dress, the habit, etc, not in a vain "how do I look" way but just excited for what it means... I don't think it means that this is all they focus on with their vocation. I mean I wouldn't think that someone doesn't have a vocation just because they're excited about something like this. For example, a person might like the symbolism.