DameAgnes Posted August 22, 2013 Posted August 22, 2013 I'm sorry. I should have made it plainer that my post wasn't directed at you Dame, Sponsa, or anyone in particular. Similar comments to yours have been made on VS for as long as I've been here, and it really hit home to me how wrong that is when I was talking to another VS'er as I said in my previous post. Other threads talk about the more serious and more important side of consecrated virginity, so it's ok that a thread was made with the intention of posting wedding dress pictures or hairstyles even if it seems materialistic. However, the externals are important too because we are both body and soul. We can honor God with beauty, and there's nothing wrong with taking delight in that. It's so easy to misinterpret people on the internet since we have no cues from body language or tone of voice, so I hope you know that I write this with no ill will. Also, sorry for adding to the off-topicness of this thread, Ima. Pax. I very much dislike all of the tension in this place and agree with you that the absence of non-verbal clues contributes to it. Also wonder if the Evil One isn't having himself a field day. :-)
brandelynmarie Posted August 22, 2013 Posted August 22, 2013 Dame Agnes, I cannot prop you enough! Thank you! May God bring an even greater good out of all of this...
Laurie Posted August 22, 2013 Posted August 22, 2013 I think that someone can be excited about the wedding dress, the habit, etc, not in a vain "how do I look" way but just excited for what it means... I don't think it means that this is all they focus on with their vocation. I mean I wouldn't think that someone doesn't have a vocation just because they're excited about something like this. For example, a person might like the symbolism. Yes, I think so, too. Adding to that, I remember a theologian saying once that there is no such virtue as "piously frumpy." You might be pious, and you might choose to be frumpy because you think it is "better" and "holier" to be frumpy, but it's not. It's just frumpy! That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with plain, or simple, or even ugly close. But in themselves, they aren't virtuous. And they aren't "better" just because the person wearing them wants to be holy and detached. He went on to say that to have the attitude of "look at me! look at how piously frumpy I am!" would be a fault, not a virtue. Simplicity in the Church's sense isn't the absence of material goods. It's purity of intention and detachment to things because your heart is focused on Christ. It’s using all things ordered toward Him being your All in All.
MarysLittleFlower Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 Yes, I think so, too. Adding to that, I remember a theologian saying once that there is no such virtue as "piously frumpy." You might be pious, and you might choose to be frumpy because you think it is "better" and "holier" to be frumpy, but it's not. It's just frumpy! That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with plain, or simple, or even ugly close. But in themselves, they aren't virtuous. And they aren't "better" just because the person wearing them wants to be holy and detached. He went on to say that to have the attitude of "look at me! look at how piously frumpy I am!" would be a fault, not a virtue. Simplicity in the Church's sense isn't the absence of material goods. It's purity of intention and detachment to things because your heart is focused on Christ. It’s using all things ordered toward Him being your All in All. I agree with you that we need the virtues of love for God and humility whether or not we're called to dress more simply or not. I also think that dressing simply and very modestly, doesn't have to look frumpy, I mean I actually think that many modest clothes are more beautiful... if they're elegantly made. For example habits are very modest and I think they're beautiful and so Mary-like :) I think that feeling an attraction to dressing more simply or having fewer possessions is something that God could give someone, so it's a good thing, but of course they should approach it humbly and with love, not pridefully or just to get attention. I don't know if it's just me but sometimes even with good things, my pride comes up from time to time and it's like a temptation, so I think we should always seek humility... it's like how Scripture says that without love, we are nothing. Even if we do things like give up our body to be burned or give everything to the poor... or any good deed, without love, it is not valuable. God really looks at the intention too :) In the past week, I've started reading blogs by & about CV's & wanted to share this beautiful photo. I think her dress & veil illustrate what you are saying Laurie. :) That's a beautiful dress! that's what I meant too I think - simple and not "fashionable" yet elegant and modest :)
abrideofChrist Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 I was at my bishop's house for a meal with him and some friends today, and had nice memories of my consecration next door at the Cathedral. While simplicity is good, each bride has her own style, and I really liked the style Sara had for her big day. Full bridal gown and train: http://consecratedvirgins.org/usacv/sites/default/files/documents/newsletters/USACV_The_Lamp_Sept_8_2009.pdf When I saw that picture in the USACV newsletter, I was glad to see such a lovely dress being used for so happy a day.
Laurie Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 I was at my bishop's house for a meal with him and some friends today, and had nice memories of my consecration next door at the Cathedral. While simplicity is good, each bride has her own style, and I really liked the style Sara had for her big day. Full bridal gown and train: http://consecratedvirgins.org/usacv/sites/default/files/documents/newsletters/USACV_The_Lamp_Sept_8_2009.pdf When I saw that picture in the USACV newsletter, I was glad to see such a lovely dress being used for so happy a day. I agree, there are different kinds of beauty. A simple look can be elegant & beautiful. But I also LOVE to see a CV who looks like a queen, as Sara does in this photo. Both kinds of beauty are appropriate to the vocation.
Laurie Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 wow, very nice! :) Isn't it! You know, I get it that some Catholics in the USA in these days (lay people, families) want to distance themselves from the crazy materiaistic culture we live in. I sympathize with a desire to not get sucked in to the shallowness of the culture. At the same time, most people don't realize that St. Therese's mom was in the midst of the haute couture of her day! Alencon lace was posh and in high demand. She had a slew of rich ladies coming in and out of her parlor, all day long, ordering the high end lace that she made. (She made it herself, and she also oversaw women who made it, under her direction.) Eventually, Mr. Martin sold his watch business to help his wife, because her business was booming! (Another interesting tidbit is that partly because they were immersed in a posh world, Mr. & Mrs. Martin got up super early each morning to attend the "workers' mass." It was at 6:00am, or so, don't remember exactly. But they wanted to attend the mass that the poor attended, the only mass that a grunt worker could go to, if he or she would go to daily mass at all. I think that is a beautiful way to combine living in a posh culture with ordering your day towards God.) Here's a photo of Alencon lace, from a website (there are a lot of styles & patterns of the lace, of course): http://www.housefabric.com/ALJ1640-White-P91852C84.aspx In fact, I think I will start a thread on this topic. For those who have a devotion to St. Therese, having a bit of this lace is a nice tribute to her & her family.
brandelynmarie Posted August 24, 2013 Posted August 24, 2013 All that is good and all that is beautiful comes from God. :blush:
Laurie Posted August 24, 2013 Posted August 24, 2013 Alright, my friends, just a quick note to say I'm thankful for all of you (even you grumpy ones ;)) and will be praying for you. I really can't believe that after all the research and thought I've put into the Bride of Christ thread, it's been shut down. I'm not comfortable sticking around under these circumstances. I really can't get a grasp on what the culture here is supposed to be--it just makes no sense to me--so there's no point. Though I remain thankful to the forum moderators for all they do for the rest of you. With prayers & affection!
Ima Lurker Posted August 24, 2013 Posted August 24, 2013 It's a debate to post a picture? I don't understand this site at all. :(
Nunsense Posted August 24, 2013 Posted August 24, 2013 Moving to Debate Table. Thank you dUSt. It can't be easy for you to have to be parent/referee/whatever when things get tense and to make the tough calls. But keeping VS focused on threads for discerning vocations to religious life and priesthood is appreciated.
abrideofChrist Posted August 24, 2013 Posted August 24, 2013 [mod]Personal attack. 7 day suspension. -dUSt[/mod]
Nunsense Posted August 24, 2013 Posted August 24, 2013 Edited by moderator: Personal attack. 7 day suspension. -dUSt I am sorry if I gave the impression that dUSt does not value other forms of consecrated life. The omission of the words 'consecrated life' was mine and does not reflect what dUSt feels about Consecrated Hermits or Consecrated Widows or Consecrated Virgins or any other form of consecrated life at all. The fact that this thread was moved to Debate Table only indicates (to me at any rate) that this topic had differing opinions that made it a more relevant thread for DT than VS. I was simply trying to state that dUSt has a difficult job trying to please everyone. I did not mean to cause more division or dissent. My apologies to all who were offended.
Ima Lurker Posted August 24, 2013 Posted August 24, 2013 I am sorry if I gave the impression that dUSt does not value other forms of consecrated life. The omission of the words 'consecrated life' was mine and does not reflect what dUSt feels about Consecrated Hermits or Consecrated Widows or Consecrated Virgins or any other form of consecrated life at all. The fact that this thread was moved to Debate Table only indicates (to me at any rate) that this topic had differing opinions that made it a more relevant thread for DT than VS. I was simply trying to state that dUSt has a difficult job trying to please everyone. I did not mean to cause more division or dissent. My apologies to all who were offended. I just wanted a positive thread like the one for religious. Where we can think cheerful thoughts. No debate. Just fun pictures. I'm hurt.
Aloysius Posted August 24, 2013 Posted August 24, 2013 These threads were moved not because of the initial posts, but because they turned into debates after those posts. With the new rule about debates in Vocation Station, we hope that this will not happen again to people's posts about their vocations, however we cannot always be on top of things and we prefer to have a light touch in moderating, therefore it may sometimes unfortunately happen that a thread in Vocation Station ends up moved to the Debate Table. If everyone remembers to leave threads as safe places to discuss discernment without debating the nature of the vocations or being confrontational about them, this will hopefully not have to happen in the future. As regards the other thread that was closed, it is a common practice that when a thread has already run through a large number of pages and begins to generate a plethora of reports, we close the thread to allow people to cool down and take some time, and possibly discuss the same topic at some later date in a new thread. After 50 pages, I think everyone's positions speak for themselves to any reading audience, and obviously no side is going to convince the other side any time soon (this is the internet, after all). Reminder that public criticism of moderator decisions is not allowed, please address your grievances through charitable personal messages and we will do our best to address your concerns if possible.
Nunsense Posted August 24, 2013 Posted August 24, 2013 (edited) I just wanted a positive thread like the one for religious. Where we can think cheerful thoughts. No debate. Just fun pictures. I'm hurt. I didn't realize Aloysius had posted already in response to this so my post is redundant and I deleted it. Edited August 24, 2013 by nunsense
Aloysius Posted August 24, 2013 Posted August 24, 2013 I would just like to point out that while we cannot go back and determine who/what caused some of these threads to turn into debates, it is my understanding of the new rules that if someone were to post a new thread for "pictures and fun" about consecrated virginity in Vocation Station, it would be against the rules to initiate a debate in such a thread, as it should be a safe place for discussion of discernment regarding consecrated virginity as well, and anyone who believes that someone's view on consecrated virginity is incorrect would need to start a thread in the debate table rather than trying to correct them within their Vocation Station thread. as all these controversies are rather bewildering to the moderating team, quite frankly, I do hope the position is clarified now and I am not stepping on any sorts of landmines here :P
Laurie Posted August 24, 2013 Posted August 24, 2013 Well, so, I just reread what I wrote and I realized my saying I'm thankful to the moderators for what they do for the rest of you sounded snotty. I'm sorry, that's not how I meant it to sound! I said it that way because I'm bowing out and won't be around to benefit from the stuff I do like here. I do recognize what they have done for me in having this forum at all, and for the chance I had to chat with all of you. Good night!
cmaD2006 Posted August 24, 2013 Posted August 24, 2013 Aloysius is correct (or I second what he just said). If a thread in Vocation Station (VS) stuck to only pics of consecrations, without the debate, then it will be perfectly fine. With the new VS guidelines in place we mods will watch for that in the future and act accordingly. A lot has happened in this thread ... I am closing it. If you want to debate anything related to consecrated virginity please open a new thread in debate table (NOT VS). No need for more hurt feelings and misunderstandings in this thread. If you want to post consecration pictures and open a new thread in VS -- please feel free. Just be forewarned -- no debating please. A gentle reminder to all to read the phorum rules listed at the top of the debate table, AND the VS rules in VS if you are going to post there.
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