Figures...

[Livin_the_MASS]

Pray

[Aloysius]

i gotz an idea, take a not from St. Ambrose and make the confrontation outside the Church, don't even let em enter!!! that used to be the way to make sure they wouldn't take the Eucharist and not have a confrontation at the altar!

St. Ambrose keeping Emporar Theodosius out of the Milan Cathedral after he ordered a slaughter of one of his subject villiages:
[img]http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/WebMedia/Images/50/NG50/eNG50.jpg[/img]

[qfnol31]

I know if I were to become a priest and not deny someone like that Communion, it would be on my soul...Priests are more accountable than the rest of us because they lead parishes, so more souls are on their hands.

If we take Holy Communion while in mortal sin, that's not good. (It can very well lead to damnation). A priest who gives out Holy Communion to a person who he knows in this state must judge his conscience and decide for himself, while remembering that he is responsible for the souls of those who come to him.

[crusader1234]

well, this may or may not have already been said, but heres the thing

who are we to deny communion??? i can say without doubt that most of the people that read this have taken communion in a state of mortal sin.

when we go to church, every single catholic takes communion aside from the 2 or 3 that know not to - theres NO WAY that all these people are perfectly free from sin.

this isnt to say i dont think that they should be given communion, because i dont, i just also think that if we are going to deny it to politicians we should also deny it to evreyone who hasnt just attended confession since their last mortal sin. and priests know... how could they not? if a person shows up for weekly mass, or even daily, and only comes to confession once a year, hes going to know something is up.

i know that promoting abortion is obviosuly worse than say being unchaste, but its STILL the same idea... desecrating the sacrament.

Edited June 5, 2004 by crusader1234

[qfnol31]

We're no one to deny Communion. The priest however can, and I've heard stories when they have. That's why as an Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion, I never deny anyone, even if I'm in question.

[maxk]

[quote name='crusader1234' date='Jun 4 2004, 10:37 PM'] well, this may or may not have already been said, but heres the thing

who are we to deny communion??? i can say without doubt that most of the people that read this have taken communion in a state of mortal sin.

when we go to church, every single catholic takes communion aside from the 2 or 3 that know not to - theres NO WAY that all these people are perfectly free from sin.

this isnt to say i dont think that they should be given communion, because i dont, i just also think that if we are going to deny it to politicians we should also deny it to evreyone who hasnt just attended confession since their last mortal sin. and priests know... how could they not? if a person shows up for weekly mass, or even daily, and only comes to confession once a year, hes going to know something is up.

i know that promoting abortion is obviosuly worse than say being unchaste, but its STILL the same idea... desecrating the sacrament. [/quote]
There is a difference. Most of the time, we don't really know that a person is in mortal sin, thus they end up actually committing the sacriledge. But it's different when a public leader who publicly supports abortion etc., goes up to receive. Its like at the Last Supper; some say we should allow the politicians to receive even when the are against the Churches teachings just because many believe that Judas received at the Last Supper in Jesus' presence. But at that time, Judas' grave sin was not yet public; it was not a horrible scandalous example as it would be if everyone knew his intentions and how he rejected Christ in the Eucharist. If someone is publicly leading a lifestyle or promoting a lifestyle that goes directly against the Church's teachings, they should be denied.

[Theologian in Training]

While I agree with all that has been said the difficulty I have is that the Real Presence is a central tenet of the Catholic faith, it is what gives shape to a Catholic identity. What are we saying by giving those who publicly support abortion communion?

While it is true we don't know the state of their soul at that particular moment, the sad thing is that they seem to be using Jesus present in the Blessed Sacrament as a political statement.

The question remains: what are we doing when we let those that openly support abortion receive communion? Personally, it seems as though we have adopted a mentality of being more afraid of offending the politicians and the faithful rather than Jesus Himself. I was absolutely moved and floored at the same time when speaking with a priest about first communions and the way the parents were complaining to him for not giving them first communion because they found sporting events, not going to Mass, etc. more important than going. He said, "when I die and go before Jesus, He is going to ask me who I chose, the parish or Him, now I am sorry, but I am going to have to say Him.

Granted, it is not as extreme, but it is a similar case. The question is then at what point are we going to go to appease everyone while possibly not even taking into account Jesus Himself?

Now understand I am making a general statement and not singling anyone out in particular. It is just something I think about often, and wonder about, especially in light of fears that this could really challenge what it means to be Catholic and have a clear Catholic identity.

God Bless

[jasJis]

[quote name='crusader1234' date='Jun 4 2004, 10:37 PM'] who are we to deny communion??? [/quote]
This is an interesting point. What are the requirements upon a priest to deny communion? Shouldn't he have to have direct and first hand knowledge of the mortal sin to deny the Grace in the Eucharist? It is a very, very serious thing on the part of a priest. It's one thing to mislead people away from Grace like a public politician. It's another when a Priest, an ordained instrument of Grace, denys it. The must be a large burden of responsibility on him. A public politician makes public statements and actions that a priest may know. It may be a little tougher to consider neccessary extenuating circumstances. I'd love to hear from a priest on this. Most priests I know are very reluctant to deny any Sacrament. When people get denied things, it's much more serious than the average Catholic realizes.

[Livin_the_MASS]

The Holy Eucharist is God Himself you know! Jesus Christ True God True Man, Present Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity.

You can't be be in mortal sin and recieve Him I think this should be more strict so more people go to confession like they are supposed too. [b]period[/b].

You ask me if they deny them they are doing them a favor, St Paul wrote:

[quote][b][u]1 Cor 11: 22-31[/u][/b]

For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread,

and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, "This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me."

In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me."

For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.

[b]Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. 

A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup.

For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.

That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying.

If we discerned ourselves, we would not be under judgment;[/b][/quote]

If you are in mortal sin know it is wrong and go anyway, big problem needs to be fixed. God's Holy Will be done
Pax

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jun 4 2004, 10:57 PM'] i gotz an idea, take a not from St. Ambrose and make the confrontation outside the Church, don't even let em enter!!! that used to be the way to make sure they wouldn't take the Eucharist and not have a confrontation at the altar!

St. Ambrose keeping Emporar Theodosius out of the Milan Cathedral after he ordered a slaughter of one of his subject villiages:
[img]http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/WebMedia/Images/50/NG50/eNG50.jpg[/img] [/quote]
Exactly!!

[Aloysius]

Anyway, I think a priest can deny communion if there is a publically known grave offense for which giving the person communion would be seen to everyone as an allowance of such a grave offense. It is a matter of causing scandal to the faithful! That is why public grave offenses merit the official ministerial role of informing the politician that they may not receive the sacrament, because it affects us all in a more serious, visible, and profound way.

Pax Amorque Christi
Athanasius Contra Mundi! et Ambrose contra Theodosius! Edited June 5, 2004 by Aloysius

[cmotherofpirl]

Jas priests are called to deny Baptism to parents who will not raise the child Catholic, or deny marriage to people who refuse to consider children. He can also deny Absolution to an unrepentant sinner.

Anyone claiming to be Catholic and publically votes to kill children is both notorious and a sinner.

Why shouldn't he deny Communion to noterious sinners causing grave scandal to the Body of Christ?

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Jun 5 2004, 01:39 PM'] Jas priests are called to deny Baptism to parents who will not raise the child Catholic, or deny marriage to people who refuse to consider children. He can also deny Absolution to an unrepentant sinner.

Anyone claiming to be Catholic and publically votes to kill children is both notorious and a sinner.

Why shouldn't he deny Communion to noterious sinners causing grave scandal to the Body of Christ? [/quote]
I could not have said it better myself! God Bless you cmom!!!!

[cmotherofpirl]

The sky is falling, Pope and I are in perfect agreement

[Winchester]

Wait, the Cardinal is an invertabrate? Is that allowed? I'd check Canon Law...

[crusader1234]

Well, I have sort of changed my stance. I change it from "who are we to deny communion" to "shouldnt we also deny communion to...". I agree with Cmom and popepius, if a person is a notorius sinner, they shouldnt get communion - not JUST abortion supporters.

[jasJis]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Jun 5 2004, 12:39 PM'] Jas priests are called to deny Baptism to parents who will not raise the child Catholic, or deny marriage to people who refuse to consider children. He can also deny Absolution to an unrepentant sinner.

Anyone claiming to be Catholic and publically votes to kill children is both notorious and a sinner.

Why shouldn't he deny Communion to noterious sinners causing grave scandal to the Body of Christ? [/quote]
I did not intend to say that a priest shouldn't deny the Eucharist. I was pointing out that it is a grave act and that he has to be very sure.

In the case of a parishioner or someone coming to talk to him, the priest would know first hand what the mindset is of the person because he has the opportunity to personally talk with them and perform his pastoral duties.

In the case of a politician, the priest would have to know the actual voting record. He would have to do some work and probably meet with the politician. Could the politician be able to say he voted for a pro-abort bill because it was a small clause in a bill that increased funding for medical care of the indingent? Could the politician believe he is doing good by picking the lessor of two evils?

We, nor a priest, should be to quick to pass judgement. That's why it's taken a bit of time for Bishops to speak out and my declarations. They may be trying to fullfull their pastoral responsibilities in a fair and reasonable manner. If nothing else, I've learned the Catholic Church always trys to be fair and reasonable and give the benefit of the doubt to the people as much as it can. God judges, we conjecture.

[Aloysius]

the bishop should probably meet with the politician, as every bishop i think has denied communion to politicians has either done or tried to do.

it's PUBLICLY KNOWN grave matter for which a Bishop should deny communion, or if the priest knows the person personally knowing he is in a state of mortal sin. But when someone acts in a manner that is unCatholic and visible to all, then considers himself Catholic, the Catholic Church must take strong measures to ensure all know that one cannot be Catholic and act like that.

increased funding for healthcare cannot justify a pro-BABYKILLING bill. it is never the lesser of two evils, NEVER. Abortion is a greater evil than no health care, it kills people before they even have a chance to live!

If someone claims to be Catholic yet publicly votes for pro-abortion stuff, the Bishop should try to discuss this with him and get him to change his position. It cannot be justified-- EVER. If the politician does not change his position, the bishop should not allow him to still be considered a Catholic in good standing by denying the Eucharist.

That is my stance, it's not judging the state of anyone's soul, it's saying that the bishop's responsibility is to protect the flock from wolves in sheeps clothing.

St. Ambrose pray for us

Pax Amorque Christi

[Crusader_4]

Abortion is non-negotiable in any circumstanec.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='crusader1234' date='Jun 6 2004, 12:46 AM'] Well, I have sort of changed my stance. I change it from "who are we to deny communion" to "shouldnt we also deny communion to...". I agree with Cmom and popepius, if a person is a notorius sinner, they shouldnt get communion - not JUST abortion supporters. [/quote]
The notorius sin would have to be public though, at least according to Canon Law, in order to justify denial of Communion. If the priest knew of a secret sin, even a habitual mortal but secret sin, I am not sure that he could deny Communion. It would be exposing the secret sins of another. If the sin is public (and mortal), then I think he MUST deny the person.