Interview With Pope Francis In America Magazine

[Basilisa Marie]

In the face of the false wisdom of the world, we as Catholics should be counter-cultural. It is weird but being quiet about moral issues in order to try and convert people seems disingenuous to me, much like when Mormon missionaries do not tell people the secret side of Mormonism (e.g., the idea that God the Father comes from a planet called Kolob, and that Jesus and Satan are actually brothers, etc.).

 

Did I ever say that we be quiet about moral issues?  No.

 

 "We need to focus on the necessity of Christ and salvation WHILE talking about our issues. "

 

Preaching the gospel of salvation IS being counter-cultural.  

[Apotheoun]

let me guess. you go to catholic school. am I right?

Me? No. I was Protestant for twenty-five years, and have been Catholic since 1988.

[Lilllabettt]

Me? No. I was Protestant for twenty-five years, and have been Catholic since 1988.

 

No sorry - i should have quoted. I am guessing that GeorgiiMichael and Basilia Marie go/went to a catholic school.

[Basilisa Marie]

No sorry - i should have quoted. I am guessing that GeorgiiMichael and Basilia Marie go/went to a catholic school.

 

Lol yeah, for college.  

[GeorgiiMichael]

Salvation involves the healing of human nature, which itself is the restoration of the moral norm. You cannot be saved and live a life of depravity. Of course one can only fulfill the moral norm by living a life of grace, but real faith in Christ can never be separated from our actions, and so this attempt to say that the Church focuses too much on morality really makes no sense.

And it's a good thing that THAT ISN'T WHAT IS BEING DONE AT ALL.

 

Good grief. Sometimes I think you just talk to hear yourself talk. 

 

The pope is merely saying that opening the conversation with the moral arguments just turns people away. Salvation is the best opening salvo. Because when you start telling people right off the bat that what they're doing is bad, they will immediately throw up their defenses, and either do everything in their power to discredit you or just walk away completely. 

 

Hasan brought up a good point. The Church has been hemorrhaging members for years. And I'd lay money on the fact that most of the people who left did so because instead of getting a "this is why you're wrong in light of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but don't fret, Christ also gave us the beautiful sacrament of reconciliation" they got a, "you're wrong, now go to confession." 

 

It's the classic honey v. vinegar argument. The Gospel is about love in all it's depth, not about fire and brimstone.

[Apotheoun]

Did I ever say that we be quiet about moral issues?  No.

 

 "We need to focus on the necessity of Christ and salvation WHILE talking about our issues. "

 

Preaching the gospel of salvation IS being counter-cultural.  

I guess we now have to define what we mean by "Gospel" and by "salvation." Because I do not know if I agree with the idea that in a culture that is promoting immorality as normal, we should avoid those hot button moral issues in order to deceptively win converts, and it would be deceptive if we de-emphasize the moral norm to get people to come to Church. Of course anyone who "converts" without knowing about the necessity of turning away from sin would not be a real convert anyway.

 

Ultimately the whole process would become farce.

[Apotheoun]

The Church has been hemorrhaging members since the time of Christ. She has also been converting people for 2,000 years. 

[Lilllabettt]

I think that most Homilies I have heard are pretty generic. The only really sharp moral condemnations that I hear, however, are those rare ones against homosexuality and abortion. So gay teens in the mid west who get the poo kicked out of them every day get the fully furry of the Church's moral weight, such as it is. While the guy who runs a payday loan service never seems to be given cause to question his line of work. That's why people get repulsed by the Churches moralizing. Because it is often directed against elements of society that are already stigmatized.

 

I think you are right -- about the gay issue. Blew that one, big time.  I have never heard a homily about abortion that did not include several sentences about mercy and compassion for the mothers.  I think abortion should come up in conversations all the time, among believers and nonbelievers. In Europe no one discusses abortion. People die and no one makes a sound.

 

And i don't count contraceptive users as a social underclass.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Lilllabettt

[Lilllabettt]

Lol yeah, for college.  

 

 

Well I think that colors your perception a little. I have never lived in a Catholic bubble - except when I was in the convent. And yes, in the convent/Catholic bubble I heard about abortion, gay marriage, contraception all the time.

Outside of the bubble, things are very different. At least that has been my experience.
 

[Basilisa Marie]

I guess we now have to define what we mean by "Gospel" and by "salvation." Because I do not know if I agree with the idea that in a culture that is promoting immorality as normal, we should avoid those hot button moral issues in order to deceptively win converts, and it would be deceptive if we de-emphasize the moral norm to get people to come to Church. Of course anyone who "converts" without knowing about the necessity of turning away from sin would not be a real convert anyway.

 

Ultimately the whole process would become farce.

 

 

By Gospel I mean Jesus and what he said and did and the way he wants us to live our lives.  By salvation I mean that we are saved from eternal death and damnation because of the sacrifice of Christ's love. 

 

No one has said that we should avoid those hot button moral issues in order to deceptively win converts.  STOP reading that into what others are saying. 

[Basilisa Marie]

Well I think that colors your perception a little. I have never lived in a Catholic bubble - except when I was in the convent. And yes, in the convent/Catholic bubble I heard about abortion, gay marriage, contraception all the time.

Outside of the bubble, things are very different. At least that has been my experience.
 

 

Good point.

 

Sure, it colors our perception, but I think it also gives us insight into what many young Catholics are collectively focusing on.  Outside that bubble, I think a lot of what Dust said holds true - people are talking about Pope Francis, and it's an opportunity for Joe Catholic to stand up and represent. 

[Apotheoun]

You seem to be leveling a serious charge here by analogy that Pope Francis is teaching error. You started by stating that the Holy Father is de-emphasizing the renewal of the interior life and laxity towards the moral law based on the twisted headlines of the MSM. I would like to know where Pope Francis taught moral error. A quote from the Vatican's website would be great.

 

I have not charged the pope with heresy (although there have been heretical popes before), nor would I accuse him of formal heresy based upon a magazine interview or some other type of press junket. But he should be more precise in what he says because I am not going to blame CNN or the New York Times for misrepresenting him when he puts himself into these situations by making off-the-cuff comments. Perhaps he would be better off if he was at least a bit more scripted in his interactions with the media.

[Basilisa Marie]

I have not charged the pope with heresy (although there have been heretical popes before), nor would I accuse him of formal heresy based upon a magazine interview or some other type of press junket. But he should be more precise in what he says because I am not going to blame CNN or the New York Times for misrepresenting him when he puts himself into these situations by making off-the-cuff comments. Perhaps he would be better off if he was at least a bit more scripted in his interactions with the media.

 

Wait.  Then how can you blame others for misinterpreting Benedict? You're being inconsistent. 

[Apotheoun]

By Gospel I mean Jesus and what he said and did and the way he wants us to live our lives.  By salvation I mean that we are saved from eternal death and damnation because of the sacrifice of Christ's love. 

 

No one has said that we should avoid those hot button moral issues in order to deceptively win converts.  STOP reading that into what others are saying. 

Can faith in Jesus be separated from living a moral life. If you say you have Jesus but you really enjoy fornication can you say that you are living the Gospel? 

And what precisely was Christ's sacrifice about? What did it efface? Why did He even need to be sacrificed?

[Apotheoun]

Wait.  Then how can you blame others for misinterpreting Benedict? You're being inconsistent. 

Because when you looked at what Pope Benedict actually said you could see that he was simply reiterating the Church's doctrine. That is not clear when looking at what Pope Francis says. Oh, and I do try to give him the benefit of the doubt.

[Basilisa Marie]

Can faith in Jesus be separated from living a moral life. If you say you have Jesus but you really enjoy fornication can you say that you are living the Gospel? 

And what precisely was Christ's sacrifice about? What did it efface? Why did He even need to be sacrificed?

 

Stop pretending anyone is separating the moral life from the Gospel.  All any of us are saying is that one can focus too much on moral issues and forget to talk about salvation and the necessity of Christ.  You can't separate the Gospel from the life, but you CAN separate the life from the Gospel. 

[Basilisa Marie]

Because when you looked at what Pope Benedict actually said you could see that he was simply reiterating the Church's doctrine. That is not clear when looking at what Pope Francis says. Oh, and I do try to give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

 

Are you kidding me.  

[Lilllabettt]

I would like to say I'm grateful for the opportunity to represent. Although I feel more than a little funny correcting the "catechesis" people get from the Holy Father -- or rather the catechesis he is allowing the media to give in his name.  I say he is allowing it because its not my impression that he is very frustrated with what is being reported.

[Lilllabettt]

I am not an unbiased observer. He broke my heart over the business with the spiritual bouquet.  So everything is sunk on that.

[Apotheoun]

Are you kidding me.  

No. In the whole eight years of Pope Benedict's pontificate the worst thing that happened with the media - from my perspective - is when he spoke about the use of condoms by prostitutes as a step toward morality. It was a poorly worded statement, and the media ran with it. But most of the attacks upon Pope Benedict by the media were due to the fact that he was - from their perspective - intransigent about doctrinal matters (especially on abortion and homosexuality). So they attacked him as harsh. That is not what is happening with Pope Francis and the media. The media is rather supportive of Pope Francis, and they are simply taking comments he makes and running with them, but it is his comments that lend themselves to this kind of sensationalism. So I do not blame CNN or the New York Times (to name just two media outlets) for the fact that Pope Francis is a bit imprecise? No. I would prefer to see Pope Francis issue some official teaching documents and stop all the interviews. While I admit that Pope John Paul II was pretty good at such things, Pope Francis does not seem to have his ability.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Apotheoun