Interview With Pope Francis In America Magazine

[dUSt]

Who knows. I am not vehemently disagreeing with anyone here. I'm just giving the pope the benefit of the doubt.... because, well... he's the pope. The pope is dope.

[Era Might]

I haven't read the interview yet, looking forward to it yet, but I think it's unfortunate when people have to fit everything into their worldview. And it happens on all sides...this interview, for liberals, will be another pat on the back for whatever it is liberals are doing these days, and for conservatives, it will be another thing to do damage control on in case it chips away at their ideological fortresses. It's just an interview, from a man who's been around many years. This Pope is as much a creature of his times as Popes in the middle ages calling for crusades, and in 100 years history will look back and see what was going on here. Take what he says and consider it...doesn't mean you have to agree with everything, just don't freak out about it (or think that it is your vindication). I think this is part of the Pope's point...people make idols out of their own comfortable, well-constructed beliefs, they lose the ability to think outside of that. That's a problem in the church as much as it is in the world...it was one of the vices of the middle ages.

 

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function." --F. Scott Fitzgerald

Edited September 19, 2013 by Era Might

[GeorgiiMichael]

does your pastor preach about gay marriage, abortion, contraception all the time? I have had maybe 6 or 7 pastors in my life and none of them preached on those things all the time. Some never did. For most they were topics for special occasions ... oh look its Respect Life Sunday type of thing.

 

is my experience a minority one?

From the pulpit, that experience rings true for me.

 

But in my everyday interactions with Catholics, including priests?

 

The fact that while experiencing my faith (from prayer to discussions with people) on a daily basis, one or more of those issues necessarily comes up is ridiculous. Especially when salvation and forgiveness are so frequently left out of discussion. 

 

Morality means diddly without salvation, so why do we forget to mention salvation when we're so adamantly decrying the sins of the world?

 

The uncomfortable message of the Church isn't telling you that what you're doing is wrong. Anyone can say that. The uncomfortable message of the Church is showing you why what you're doing is wrong in light of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And that message can't be delivered if people won't even give you the time of day because they "know" that you're just going to hand them a list of rules that if they break they need to go to confession.

[Apotheoun]

Salvation involves the healing of human nature, which itself is the restoration of the moral norm. You cannot be saved and live a life of depravity. Of course one can only fulfill the moral norm by living a life of grace, but real faith in Christ can never be separated from our actions, and so this attempt to say that the Church focuses too much on morality really makes no sense.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Basilisa Marie]

From the pulpit, that experience rings true for me.

 

But in my everyday interactions with Catholics, including priests?

 

The fact that while experiencing my faith (from prayer to discussions with people) on a daily basis, one or more of those issues necessarily comes up is ridiculous. Especially when salvation and forgiveness are so frequently left out of discussion. 

 

Morality means diddly without salvation, so why do we forget to mention salvation when we're so adamantly decrying the sins of the world?

 

The uncomfortable message of the Church isn't telling you that what you're doing is wrong. Anyone can say that. The uncomfortable message of the Church is showing you why what you're doing is wrong in light of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And that message can't be delivered if people won't even give you the time of day because they "know" that you're just going to hand them a list of rules that if they break they need to go to confession.

 

Seriously.

 

I think the problem might be that for us Catholics, it seems so obvious that salvation goes hand in hand with preaching morality.  But for the rest of the world, it isn't.  They only hear what we say, not what we think.  We need to focus on the necessity of Christ and salvation WHILE talking about our issues.  

[Apotheoun]

Seriously.

 

I think the problem might be that for us Catholics, it seems so obvious that salvation goes hand in hand with preaching morality.  But for the rest of the world, it isn't.  They only hear what we say, not what we think.  We need to focus on the necessity of Christ and salvation WHILE talking about our issues.  

In the face of the false wisdom of the world, we as Catholics should be counter-cultural. It is weird but being quiet about moral issues in order to try and convert people seems disingenuous to me, much like when Mormon missionaries do not tell people the secret side of Mormonism (e.g., the idea that God the Father comes from a planet called Kolob, and that Jesus and Satan are actually brothers, etc.).

Edited September 19, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Lilllabettt]

let me guess. you go to catholic school. am I right?

[Brother Adam]

In the Diocese of Oakland there is a priest who has said in his homilies that adultery is not always wrong, but I haven't noticed any influx of new converts into his parish.

 

You seem to be leveling a serious charge here by analogy that Pope Francis is teaching error. You started by stating that the Holy Father is de-emphasizing the renewal of the interior life and laxity towards the moral law based on the twisted headlines of the MSM. I would like to know where Pope Francis taught moral error. A quote from the Vatican's website would be great.

 

People do not convert because you slapped their hand and told them how baaaad they are. They convert because they see our joy. Think about all of the spiritually dead cranky religious orders. Then look at the Dominican Sisters of Mary. They exude joy from every pore of their being. They teach the moral law from the virtues. They draw people in and share a Gospel of hope, healing, peace, and forgiveness. They do so in a way that the Gospel becomes approachable to more than just already converted liturgists and academics. People are broken and need hope. Fr. Barron tells us that the effective evangelist is filled with ardor and that people first need to see our joy. Then we can share the moral law.

 

There is a place for ethics in the conversion experience. We need to hear the Gospel, drop our nets, and re-order our lives. If we only hear part of the message - how bad sin is, then we have never been introduced to the One who overcame sin. Effective evangelization does not focus on sin as its central message. It focuses on Jesus Christ as the fulfillment of every desire. Why do we reorder our life? Ideally, not out of a fear of hell, but out of a love for God. I believe the Holy Father sees that. His writings do not mince words about how gravely evil sexual immorality is. But he knows people need to hear that God is love.

 

I share your concern about the liturgy, but I became Catholic because I know the Holy Spirit will not allow the gates of hell to overcome the Church.

 

For the ministry of Pope Francis, Hail Mary...

[Basilisa Marie]

In the face of the false wisdom of the world, we as Catholics should be counter-cultural. It is weird but being quiet about moral issues in order to try and convert people seems disingenuous to me, much like when Mormon missionaries do not tell people the secret side of Mormonism (e.g., the idea that God the Father comes from a planet called Kolob, and that Jesus and Satan are actually brothers, etc.).

 

Did I ever say that we be quiet about moral issues?  No.

 

 "We need to focus on the necessity of Christ and salvation WHILE talking about our issues. "

 

Preaching the gospel of salvation IS being counter-cultural.  

[Apotheoun]

let me guess. you go to catholic school. am I right?

Me? No. I was Protestant for twenty-five years, and have been Catholic since 1988.

[Lilllabettt]

Me? No. I was Protestant for twenty-five years, and have been Catholic since 1988.

 

No sorry - i should have quoted. I am guessing that GeorgiiMichael and Basilia Marie go/went to a catholic school.

[Basilisa Marie]

No sorry - i should have quoted. I am guessing that GeorgiiMichael and Basilia Marie go/went to a catholic school.

 

Lol yeah, for college.  

[GeorgiiMichael]

Salvation involves the healing of human nature, which itself is the restoration of the moral norm. You cannot be saved and live a life of depravity. Of course one can only fulfill the moral norm by living a life of grace, but real faith in Christ can never be separated from our actions, and so this attempt to say that the Church focuses too much on morality really makes no sense.

And it's a good thing that THAT ISN'T WHAT IS BEING DONE AT ALL.

 

Good grief. Sometimes I think you just talk to hear yourself talk. 

 

The pope is merely saying that opening the conversation with the moral arguments just turns people away. Salvation is the best opening salvo. Because when you start telling people right off the bat that what they're doing is bad, they will immediately throw up their defenses, and either do everything in their power to discredit you or just walk away completely. 

 

Hasan brought up a good point. The Church has been hemorrhaging members for years. And I'd lay money on the fact that most of the people who left did so because instead of getting a "this is why you're wrong in light of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but don't fret, Christ also gave us the beautiful sacrament of reconciliation" they got a, "you're wrong, now go to confession." 

 

It's the classic honey v. vinegar argument. The Gospel is about love in all it's depth, not about fire and brimstone.

[Apotheoun]

Did I ever say that we be quiet about moral issues?  No.

 

 "We need to focus on the necessity of Christ and salvation WHILE talking about our issues. "

 

Preaching the gospel of salvation IS being counter-cultural.  

I guess we now have to define what we mean by "Gospel" and by "salvation." Because I do not know if I agree with the idea that in a culture that is promoting immorality as normal, we should avoid those hot button moral issues in order to deceptively win converts, and it would be deceptive if we de-emphasize the moral norm to get people to come to Church. Of course anyone who "converts" without knowing about the necessity of turning away from sin would not be a real convert anyway.

 

Ultimately the whole process would become farce.

[Apotheoun]

The Church has been hemorrhaging members since the time of Christ. She has also been converting people for 2,000 years.