Interview With Pope Francis In America Magazine

[4588686]

What do we want? To spread the message of Christ to Catholics? To spread the message of Christ to an increasingly secularized world? Maybe he's not the pope for the former, but he seems to be doing a pretty good job of the latter.

My Facebook has been blowing up with people who haven't said a kind word about the Church in years praising the man. None of these people are stupid. They understand that he isn't saying that homosexual activities are now ok in the church. But they see in him a decency and a humility that they haven't previously associated with organized religion and he's put a lot the Dawkins wannabes that I know on the defensive.

Lets see how the inquisitorial faction of the Traditionalists ruin this.

[dUSt]

I once had a priest tell me that the most frustrating thing about hearing confession is how people focus on the same sins over and over again, yet, people rarely confess of lacking charity, or not showing enough love and compassion to the people they care about, or failing to have a good prayer habit.

 

When I read the pope's words, this is what I thought about. Yes, certain issues are extremely important, but we musn't allow those issues to disable us from focusing on other things that are also important.

[Apotheoun]

I do not see how morality can be divorced from (or even de-emphasized in) preaching the Gospel of Christ.

[dUSt]

I do not see how morality can be divorced from (or even de-emphasized in) preaching the Gospel of Christ.

 

Well, of course, this is how you may interpret the Pope's message if you are only reading it on CNN.

 

Here's the thing. What if people start to like the pope? Even non-Catholics? Gasp!?!? What if his style appeals to people? What if people actually started reading stuff written by the pope in his own words? What if people read those words and fall in love with not only the pope, but the Church? Then, heaven forbid, they may actually read the catechism, or attend RCIA, or maybe go to confession for the first time since they were a kid.

 

I wonder if something like that might ever happen? Naw, probably not. Everyone is exactly the same and only come into the Church after reading theology books.

[Nihil Obstat]

What do we want? To spread the message of Christ to Catholics? To spread the message of Christ to an increasingly secularized world? Maybe he's not the pope for the former, but he seems to be doing a pretty good job of the latter.

We do not want things to be static. Good Catholics should be saints, and lukewarm and bad Catholics should be good Catholics. We always have to be shaken up, because there is no such thing as good enough.
I, and imo most other people, need to hear a message that makes us uncomfortable, and pushes us to do better.

[Lilllabettt]

does your pastor preach about gay marriage, abortion, contraception all the time? I have had maybe 6 or 7 pastors in my life and none of them preached on those things all the time. Some never did. For most they were topics for special occasions ... oh look its Respect Life Sunday type of thing.

 

is my experience a minority one?

 

 

[dUSt]

We do not want things to be static. Good Catholics should be saints, and lukewarm and bad Catholics should be good Catholics. We always have to be shaken up, because there is no such thing as good enough.
I, and imo most other people, need to hear a message that makes us uncomfortable, and pushes us to do better.

 

Have you ever thought about the fact that these messages are doing just that? Us "good" Catholics cannot stand on the sidelines anymore. If the pope is the new talk around the water cooler, it's now our job to step up and represent authentic Catholic teaching. In a way, The pope is forcing us to step up. He's shaking us up. Now let's get to work.

[4588686]

Well, of course, this is how you may interpret the Pope's message if you are only reading it on CNN.

Here's the thing. What if people start to like the pope? Even non-Catholics? Gasp!?!? What if his style appeals to people? What if people actually started reading stuff written by the pope in his own words? What if people read those words and fall in love with not only the pope, but the Church? Then, heaven forbid, they may actually read the catechism, or attend RCIA, or maybe go to confession for the first time since they were a kid.

I wonder if something like that might ever happen? Naw, probably not. Everyone is exactly the same and only come into the Church after reading theology books.

That'd be one idea. But given the way the Church has been bleeding members for the last few decades it only makes sense to double down and make extra, extra sure that people understand that the Church doesn't like gay sex.

This Pope haven't really been quiet on the issue of sin and moral error. He just isn't focusing on some sins that a subset of the Reactionary Wing of the Church seem to really, really love focusing on.

[Apotheoun]

Well, of course, this is how you may interpret the Pope's message if you are only reading it on CNN.

 

Here's the thing. What if people start to like the pope? Even non-Catholics? Gasp!?!? What if his style appeals to people? What if people actually started reading stuff written by the pope in his own words? What if people read those words and fall in love with not only the pope, but the Church? Then, heaven forbid, they may actually read the catechism, or attend RCIA, or maybe go to confession for the first time since they were a kid.

 

I wonder if something like that might ever happen? Naw, probably not. Everyone is exactly the same and only come into the Church after reading theology books.

It is how I interpret what he is saying, and so maybe he needs to be more precise. The ancient Church always made it quite clear to converts that their entrance into the Church involved a moral reformation, and a constant one at that. I do not know how a person can preach Christ and not also preach about His death due to sin. Maybe this is all leading to the final rejection of the Eucharist as a sacrifice and accepting it only as a meal. I don't know what to think. Do I wish Pope Benedict was still bishop of Rome? Yeah, but he is not.

 

I do not see how de-emphasizing the moral norm will bring more converts to Christ, and I doubt that He would have accepted such an idea.

[Nihil Obstat]

Have you ever thought about the fact that these messages are doing just that? Us "good" Catholics cannot stand on the sidelines anymore. If the pope is the new talk around the water cooler, it's now our job to step up and represent authentic Catholic teaching. In a way, The pope is forcing us to step up. He's shaking us up. Now let's get to work.

I said nothing about the Holy Father's interview. :p Just your post about good Catholics staying good, etc.

[4588686]

does your pastor preach about gay marriage, abortion, contraception all the time? I have had maybe 6 or 7 pastors in my life and none of them preached on those things all the time. Some never did. For most they were topics for special occasions ... oh look its Respect Life Sunday type of thing.

is my experience a minority one?

I think that most Homilies I have heard are pretty generic. The only really sharp moral condemnations that I hear, however, are those rare ones against homosexuality and abortion. So gay teens in the mid west who get the poo kicked out of them every day get the fully furry of the Church's moral weight, such as it is. While the guy who runs a payday loan service never seems to be given cause to question his line of work. That's why people get repulsed by the Churches moralizing. Because it is often directed against elements of society that are already stigmatized.

[Apotheoun]

In the Diocese of Oakland there is a priest who has said in his homilies that adultery is not always wrong, but I haven't noticed any influx of new converts into his parish.

[dUSt]

Who knows. I am not vehemently disagreeing with anyone here. I'm just giving the pope the benefit of the doubt.... because, well... he's the pope. The pope is dope.

[Era Might]

I haven't read the interview yet, looking forward to it yet, but I think it's unfortunate when people have to fit everything into their worldview. And it happens on all sides...this interview, for liberals, will be another pat on the back for whatever it is liberals are doing these days, and for conservatives, it will be another thing to do damage control on in case it chips away at their ideological fortresses. It's just an interview, from a man who's been around many years. This Pope is as much a creature of his times as Popes in the middle ages calling for crusades, and in 100 years history will look back and see what was going on here. Take what he says and consider it...doesn't mean you have to agree with everything, just don't freak out about it (or think that it is your vindication). I think this is part of the Pope's point...people make idols out of their own comfortable, well-constructed beliefs, they lose the ability to think outside of that. That's a problem in the church as much as it is in the world...it was one of the vices of the middle ages.

 

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function." --F. Scott Fitzgerald

Edited September 19, 2013 by Era Might

[GeorgiiMichael]

does your pastor preach about gay marriage, abortion, contraception all the time? I have had maybe 6 or 7 pastors in my life and none of them preached on those things all the time. Some never did. For most they were topics for special occasions ... oh look its Respect Life Sunday type of thing.

 

is my experience a minority one?

From the pulpit, that experience rings true for me.

 

But in my everyday interactions with Catholics, including priests?

 

The fact that while experiencing my faith (from prayer to discussions with people) on a daily basis, one or more of those issues necessarily comes up is ridiculous. Especially when salvation and forgiveness are so frequently left out of discussion. 

 

Morality means diddly without salvation, so why do we forget to mention salvation when we're so adamantly decrying the sins of the world?

 

The uncomfortable message of the Church isn't telling you that what you're doing is wrong. Anyone can say that. The uncomfortable message of the Church is showing you why what you're doing is wrong in light of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And that message can't be delivered if people won't even give you the time of day because they "know" that you're just going to hand them a list of rules that if they break they need to go to confession.

[Apotheoun]

Salvation involves the healing of human nature, which itself is the restoration of the moral norm. You cannot be saved and live a life of depravity. Of course one can only fulfill the moral norm by living a life of grace, but real faith in Christ can never be separated from our actions, and so this attempt to say that the Church focuses too much on morality really makes no sense.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Basilisa Marie]

From the pulpit, that experience rings true for me.

 

But in my everyday interactions with Catholics, including priests?

 

The fact that while experiencing my faith (from prayer to discussions with people) on a daily basis, one or more of those issues necessarily comes up is ridiculous. Especially when salvation and forgiveness are so frequently left out of discussion. 

 

Morality means diddly without salvation, so why do we forget to mention salvation when we're so adamantly decrying the sins of the world?

 

The uncomfortable message of the Church isn't telling you that what you're doing is wrong. Anyone can say that. The uncomfortable message of the Church is showing you why what you're doing is wrong in light of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And that message can't be delivered if people won't even give you the time of day because they "know" that you're just going to hand them a list of rules that if they break they need to go to confession.

 

Seriously.

 

I think the problem might be that for us Catholics, it seems so obvious that salvation goes hand in hand with preaching morality.  But for the rest of the world, it isn't.  They only hear what we say, not what we think.  We need to focus on the necessity of Christ and salvation WHILE talking about our issues.  

[Apotheoun]

Seriously.

 

I think the problem might be that for us Catholics, it seems so obvious that salvation goes hand in hand with preaching morality.  But for the rest of the world, it isn't.  They only hear what we say, not what we think.  We need to focus on the necessity of Christ and salvation WHILE talking about our issues.  

In the face of the false wisdom of the world, we as Catholics should be counter-cultural. It is weird but being quiet about moral issues in order to try and convert people seems disingenuous to me, much like when Mormon missionaries do not tell people the secret side of Mormonism (e.g., the idea that God the Father comes from a planet called Kolob, and that Jesus and Satan are actually brothers, etc.).

Edited September 19, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Lilllabettt]

let me guess. you go to catholic school. am I right?

[Brother Adam]

In the Diocese of Oakland there is a priest who has said in his homilies that adultery is not always wrong, but I haven't noticed any influx of new converts into his parish.

 

You seem to be leveling a serious charge here by analogy that Pope Francis is teaching error. You started by stating that the Holy Father is de-emphasizing the renewal of the interior life and laxity towards the moral law based on the twisted headlines of the MSM. I would like to know where Pope Francis taught moral error. A quote from the Vatican's website would be great.

 

People do not convert because you slapped their hand and told them how baaaad they are. They convert because they see our joy. Think about all of the spiritually dead cranky religious orders. Then look at the Dominican Sisters of Mary. They exude joy from every pore of their being. They teach the moral law from the virtues. They draw people in and share a Gospel of hope, healing, peace, and forgiveness. They do so in a way that the Gospel becomes approachable to more than just already converted liturgists and academics. People are broken and need hope. Fr. Barron tells us that the effective evangelist is filled with ardor and that people first need to see our joy. Then we can share the moral law.

 

There is a place for ethics in the conversion experience. We need to hear the Gospel, drop our nets, and re-order our lives. If we only hear part of the message - how bad sin is, then we have never been introduced to the One who overcame sin. Effective evangelization does not focus on sin as its central message. It focuses on Jesus Christ as the fulfillment of every desire. Why do we reorder our life? Ideally, not out of a fear of hell, but out of a love for God. I believe the Holy Father sees that. His writings do not mince words about how gravely evil sexual immorality is. But he knows people need to hear that God is love.

 

I share your concern about the liturgy, but I became Catholic because I know the Holy Spirit will not allow the gates of hell to overcome the Church.

 

For the ministry of Pope Francis, Hail Mary...