Apotheoun Posted September 23, 2013 Posted September 23, 2013 Just to be clear about this: I do not begrudge Pope Francis the fact that all his needs are being met. I do not wish real poverty on anyone.
Aloysius Posted September 24, 2013 Posted September 24, 2013 by that same token all the vows of poverty of monks in well off monasteries, well basically all modern monasteries even in the desert these days, are pointless... all their needs are being met, after all, they don't really have to worry about that from day to day. Pope Francis is going as close to poverty as he can without degrading the office of the Papacy... please God don't let him sell off the Vatican and live on the streets like he probably wishes he could in the back of his mind. his talk, I think, is sincere... and sure taking a used car or living in the same room as he did during the conclave are not really all that drastic, but they're gestures of sympathy for the poor, and a way to live like a vow of poverty would inspire one to live while fulfilling his call to the papacy which demands that he be entrusted with guarding the great treasures of the Vatican for the sake of the whole church. I don't really get what your beef with Era is... I didn't see Era talk in some way that degraded previous popes, like Benedict, like some who praise Pope Francis do, that really irks me... but merely liking the way he said this stuff in that article? hmm, I think thou dost protest too much. and I guess while Pope Francis is talking talking talking, the Patriarch of Constantinople is flying around fighting crime and saving the earth from impending meteors... how the heck is Pope Francis just "talking"? You know about the 8 Cardinal Commission to clean up the curia, right? That's a pretty big action he's in the middle of right now. How about the Syria prayer vigil? That was just talk, or a powerful action for peace? He's been doing a lot of great things, maybe not some of the things you or I would like to see a pope do, but still, a lot of great things nonetheless.
Apotheoun Posted September 24, 2013 Posted September 24, 2013 (edited) by that same token all the vows of poverty of monks in well off monasteries, well basically all modern monasteries even in the desert these days, are pointless... all their needs are being met, after all, they don't really have to worry about that from day to day. Yes, they are not vows of "poverty" in the sense in which I was talking about poverty, and in the sense that I have experienced poverty myself. Members of religious orders are not allowed to own anything personally, but their community can, and so their daily needs are met, and I see nothing wrong with that, but I do take offense when people say that the poverty of religious orders is the same as that experienced by people in the world. Has Pope Francis had to choose between paying for a place to stay and eating? It is a hard decision when you have to decide to go hungry just so you have a roof over your head. Pope Francis, like all religious, has chosen not to own anything personally, and that is a form of poverty, and I commend him for living a simple life, but that is not the kind of devastating poverty that I was talking about. A form of poverty that is not chosen, although it may be lived with faith, and a form of poverty where your daily needs (not wants) are not being met. Edited September 24, 2013 by Apotheoun
Apotheoun Posted September 24, 2013 Posted September 24, 2013 (edited) Pope Francis is going as close to poverty as he can without degrading the office of the Papacy... please God don't let him sell off the Vatican and live on the streets like he probably wishes he could in the back of his mind. his talk, I think, is sincere... and sure taking a used car or living in the same room as he did during the conclave are not really all that drastic, but they're gestures of sympathy for the poor, and a way to live like a vow of poverty would inspire one to live while fulfilling his call to the papacy which demands that he be entrusted with guarding the great treasures of the Vatican for the sake of the whole church. Choosing to be "as close to poverty" as one can is not the same as being poor. Did I say that he, or anyone for that matter, needs to sell the wealth of the Catholic Church? No. I just say that he has not experienced poverty in the fullest sense of that word. Moreover, I am glad that he has sympathy for the poor, but that does not mean that he is poor in the same way. I am sure that Pope Benedict also had sympathy for the poor. He seemed like a very gentle man, and to my knowledge Pope Benedict did not own much of anything either (although I heard he rode a bicycle and perhaps he owned it). I am a bit concerned that people keep trying to make Pope Francis seem like the most humble man to have ever been pope. He seems like a kind fellow, but I have not found his life to be more humble than that of Pope Benedict. Pope Benedict never struck me as self-important. Edited September 24, 2013 by Apotheoun
Apotheoun Posted September 24, 2013 Posted September 24, 2013 (edited) I don't really get what your beef with Era is... I didn't see Era talk in some way that degraded previous popes, like Benedict, like some who praise Pope Francis do, that really irks me... but merely liking the way he said this stuff in that article? hmm, I think thou dost protest too much. I do not have a "beef" with Era. We just do not agree on theology. Moreover, I do not see the "special charism" he keeps talking about with Pope Francis. Does Pope Francis appear to be a kind man? Yes, but I am making that judgment based upon media reports, because - after all - I do not know him personally. I would say the same thing about Pope Benedict, because I did not know him personally either, but he certainly seemed like a good man. Such judgments in the eternal scheme of things are not really that important, just as claims that a particular ecclesiastic figure has a "special charism" are not that important, nor are they something that can be proven, that is, until the Church acts and declares the person in question to be a saint. But as we all know that only happens after the person has died. Edited September 24, 2013 by Apotheoun
Apotheoun Posted September 24, 2013 Posted September 24, 2013 (edited) and I guess while Pope Francis is talking talking talking, the Patriarch of Constantinople is flying around fighting crime and saving the earth from impending meteors... how the heck is Pope Francis just "talking"? You know about the 8 Cardinal Commission to clean up the curia, right? That's a pretty big action he's in the middle of right now. How about the Syria prayer vigil? That was just talk, or a powerful action for peace? He's been doing a lot of great things, maybe not some of the things you or I would like to see a pope do, but still, a lot of great things nonetheless. Well, my Orthodox friend has not really said much to me about the Patriarch of Constantinople, but what little he has said does not make me think that he is a huge fan. But in Orthodoxy no hierarch is accorded the kind of blind reverence given by some Roman Catholics to the pope, because there is no doctrine of pontifical infallibility in Orthodoxy. Patriarchs and bishops, along with priests and deacons, can be removed if they say things contrary to the faith. I do not think that a Pope can be removed in the same way. I suppose it has something to do with the different ecclesiological approaches of East and West. I will give you the Syria prayer vigil, because although prayer is composed of words, it is a very powerful act. So that is something that Pope Francis has "done" during his pontificate. As far as the Cardinal "commission" that has not even met yet, so we should probably wait and see what actually results from its meetings, rather than speak about it as something already "done". Until it actually does something it is still just "talk". Edited September 24, 2013 by Apotheoun
Apotheoun Posted September 24, 2013 Posted September 24, 2013 (edited) Al, I want to thank you for taking the time to write a thoughtful response. We many not agree with each other about the situation under review, but that does seem to be common in the present age. I pray that God continues to bless you. Edited September 24, 2013 by Apotheoun
Fidei Defensor Posted September 24, 2013 Posted September 24, 2013 Here's what I'm confused about — how can you both believe in a God who is completely unavailable to the human senses and not also believe that this God would chose to use the most visible religious leader in the world to further his will? How is one more unreasonable than the other?
Apotheoun Posted September 24, 2013 Posted September 24, 2013 Here's what I'm confused about — how can you both believe in a God who is completely unavailable to the human senses and not also believe that this God would chose to use the most visible religious leader in the world to further his will? How is one more unreasonable than the other? God can use anyone to further His will, even the non-religious or pagans (e.g., the Babylonians when they conquered Israel and deported all the Jews from the Holy Land, and later Cyrus when he allowed the Jews to return to Israel). I would even say that God used Patriarch Nestorios, the arch-heretic, to advance His will, because - although God does not cause evil - He can draw good out of evil. Did Pope Honorius' support of the monthelite heresy help to lead to the condemnation of that heresy? Yes, and it also caused him to be posthumously anathematized at the Sixth Ecumenical Council. Ultimately we all - and each in his own way - bring about the fulfillment of God's will. It is not like I can prevent the parousia of Christ from happening. In fact, my prayers and actions - and those of all other men - are moving us inexorably to Christ's return and the eschatological fulfillment of God's will.
Norseman82 Posted September 24, 2013 Posted September 24, 2013 the Patriarch of Constantinople is flying around fighting crime and saving the earth from impending meteors... http://youtu.be/Du0JDfaT4_w
Aloysius Posted September 26, 2013 Posted September 26, 2013 here's a good satire to put Pope Francis's comments in perspective: http://www.aleteia.org/en/religion/article/pope-francis-on-atheists-5641332169113600 the (fictional) comments section is pretty funny
Aloysius Posted September 27, 2013 Posted September 27, 2013 “I remember, when I used go to Germany in the 1980s and ’90s, that I was asked to give interviews and I always knew the questions in advance. They concerned the ordination of women, contraception, abortion and other such constantly recurring problems. If we let ourselves be drawn into these discussions, the Church is then identified with certain commandments or prohibitions; we give the impression that we are moralists with a few somewhat antiquated convictions, and not even a hint of the true greatness of the faith appears. I therefore consider it essential always to highlight the greatness of our faith – a commitment from which we must not allow such situations to divert us. †– Address of his Holiness Benedict XVI – Thursday, 9 November 2006 pretty much saying the same thing as Pope Francis said, btw.
Seven77 Posted September 28, 2013 Posted September 28, 2013 by that same token all the vows of poverty of monks in well off monasteries, well basically all modern monasteries even in the desert these days, are pointless... all their needs are being met, after all, they don't really have to worry about that from day to day. Pope Francis is going as close to poverty as he can without degrading the office of the Papacy... please God don't let him sell off the Vatican and live on the streets like he probably wishes he could in the back of his mind. his talk, I think, is sincere... and sure taking a used car or living in the same room as he did during the conclave are not really all that drastic, but they're gestures of sympathy for the poor, and a way to live like a vow of poverty would inspire one to live while fulfilling his call to the papacy which demands that he be entrusted with guarding the great treasures of the Vatican for the sake of the whole church. This is what Pope Kirill did in The Shoes of The Fisherman. I don't think that Pope Francis would want to sell off the Vatican. Aren't Jesuits responsible for helping to build St. Peter's Square?
Aloysius Posted September 29, 2013 Posted September 29, 2013 I only said that as kind of, he personally might like to do something like that for his personal vow of poverty; obviously as Pope he knows not to do it and wouldn't want to for many reasons, but just on the level of his vow of poverty I could see that thought crossing his mind. anyone who had a vow of poverty who ascended to the Throne of Peter would have such a thought, I think, but only the foolish would actually try to do it and I'm sure Francis would never dream of doing it haha.
cappie Posted September 30, 2013 Posted September 30, 2013 "Be aware that the English version of the interview is much incomplete & with many cuts. I asked the America's editor to restore the text in its integrity. He did that but it's still incomplete. I showed him the cuts and he now guaranteed me he will restore the text soon They didn't cut the Pope's words, of course, but still lots of informations have been lost. They will provide very soon..." Antonio Spadaro SJ â€Director @ La Civiltà Cattolica
Basilisa Marie Posted September 30, 2013 Author Posted September 30, 2013 (edited) Okay, but if they didn't cut the pope's words, it really doesn't make that much of a difference. Adding background, supplemental information would still have been ignored by almost everyone in the media, and many Catholics are already aware of it. They've made a note on the website: http://www.americamagazine.org/pope-interview Edited September 30, 2013 by Basilisa Marie
Socrates Posted October 3, 2013 Posted October 3, 2013 http://gregorianrants.wordpress.com/2013/10/03/papal-bull-part-iii-the-spirit-of-vatican-ii-arises-from-the-grave/
4588686 Posted October 3, 2013 Posted October 3, 2013 (edited) http://gregorianrants.wordpress.com/2013/10/03/papal-bull-part-iii-the-spirit-of-vatican-ii-arises-from-the-grave/ Somehow you seem to write the same article over and over again Edited October 3, 2013 by Hasan
Ice_nine Posted October 3, 2013 Posted October 3, 2013 After all, without charity as St. Paul declared, without love, we are but a “noisy gong and a clanging cymbal.†;)
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