Interview With Pope Francis In America Magazine

[4588686]

nice try.

 

 

Not a try.  Assuming you position on abortion, I don't see any moral difference between your swooning over Kissinger's realpolitik or Bush's foreign policy and somebody being pro-choice.  

[4588686]

I do pray for you Hasan, and I have for quite some time, because I do not believe that you are a bad person, confused maybe, but not bad.

 

 

Thank you, Apo.  I genuinely appreciate that.  

[Vincent Vega]

My biggest worry for the Roman Church in all of this is that Christ told his followers to expect to be hated. Being widely loved is not necessarily a bad thing, but considering the source of some of the accolades...

[4588686]

You prayed the rosary, that's great, but what's your point in relation to our discussion? The fact is we have had numerous Popes that holistically taught the faith, and on points of contention taught them charitably, and yet they were bitterly mocked and ridiculed. Like I said, you and these groups admire the weakness of the current Pope, and hope that perhaps these moral issues will ultimately be done away with (e.g. the Church adopts the contemporary Western secular point of view on these matters.)

 

I do not consider the current Pope weak.  Nor do I have any illusions on what his positions regarding abortion, gay-marriage, or condoms.  

[CatholicsAreKewl]

I'm more concerned about the aliens. 

[Apotheoun]

My biggest worry for the Roman Church in all of this is that Christ told his followers to expect to be hated. Being widely loved is not necessarily a bad thing, but considering the source of some of the accolades...

I share your concern.

[4588686]

There are a lot better enemies to be gotten then some gay teenager in Oklahoma who gets treated like shit every day in school.  Like Goldman Sachs.  Or the arms industry.  But those would be enemies with real power.  Best to stick to single mothers and gay kids.  

[Apotheoun]

I personally know some Catholic teenagers who have been treated badly in public schools because they stood up for the moral teaching of the Church. It happens.

[Norseman82]

Maybe Pope Francis doesn't view gay people and gay allies as 'the enemy.'

 

 

I agree with Hasan, because people afflicted with homosexual desires are not enemies of the Church; instead, they are human beings created in the image of God in need of the graces that come from God through the Church in order to heal human brokenness, and in the process of that healing the divine likeness lost through disordered passions and sinful actions is restored and deification is the end result.

 

Make no mistake, there is a war going on.  It is a war against life, against the family, against religious liberty, against decency. 

[Vincent Vega]

There are a lot better enemies to be gotten then some gay teenager in Oklahoma who gets treated like poo every day in school.  Like Goldman Sachs.  Or the arms industry.  But those would be enemies with real power.  Best to stick to single mothers and gay kids.  

For clarification, my argument is based upon the abortion issue, not the homosexual issue.

 

Also, you seem to be missing the [my] point. Francis seems to be being pretty loose with certain issues wherein his (perhaps) carelessness provides the apparently uninformed with justification for holding issues contrary to the teachings of the Church of Rome. In this case, I agree with you. He should, then, instruct his flock to be louder about being critical of Goldman Sachs and killing Syrians, rather than being quieter about gays and abortion. 

 

Also also, I expect that my views on the issues surrounding gays and abortion (perhaps more emphasis on the former) are quite different than most others here. However, the fact of the matter is that when I found that I dissented with the church more than I assented, I did the upstanding thing and left, rather than trying to change the Roman Church to fit my own tastes. Pretending that an institution is something that it's not/stands for something that it doesn't does no one any favors.

Edited September 21, 2013 by USAirwaysIHS

[Nihil Obstat]

Just a side note... at my supposedly Catholic high school, the students (and staff, actually) who were fully behind Catholic teachings were outnumbered a hundred to one, minimum. That is absolutely not an exaggeration. Unfortunately I think the people of the Church need evangelization as much as the rest of the world. :(

[Norseman82]

 

So FP, what'd you think about this part? 

 

 

 

There is also the concept of preventive medicine so that people don't get health problems in the first place.

[Apotheoun]

Just a side note... at my supposedly Catholic high school, the students (and staff, actually) who were fully behind Catholic teachings were outnumbered a hundred to one, minimum. That is absolutely not an exaggeration. Unfortunately I think the people of the Church need evangelization as much as the rest of the world. :(

I agree. The Church needs to evangelize people who are nominally Catholic, but who in many cases believe in nothing, or worse are actually opposed to the Church while still attending services.

[Lilllabettt]

Not a try.  Assuming you position on abortion, I don't see any moral difference between your swooning over Kissinger's realpolitik or Bush's foreign policy and somebody being pro-choice.  

 

It is a try, because I defeated you on the question of the  badness of the NARAL graphic. You had nothing to say in reply so you pivoted to another issue, in your case realpolitik.  Perhaps expecting me to take the bait engage on that? But we were discussing the NARAL graphic werent we.
 

[4588686]

It is a try, because I defeated you on the question of the  badness of the NARAL graphic. You had nothing to say in reply so you pivoted to another issue, in your case realpolitik.  Perhaps expecting me to take the bait engage on that? But we were discussing the NARAL graphic werent we.
 

 

 

No, we were discussing that.  Then you injected your claim that people who are pro-choice are the moral equivalent of Nazis or slave-owners.

[CatholicsAreKewl]

There are a lot better enemies to be gotten then some gay teenager in Oklahoma who gets treated like poo every day in school.  Like Goldman Sachs.  Or the arms industry.  But those would be enemies with real power.  Best to stick to single mothers and gay kids.  

Catholics consider abortion murder. 
Catholics believe gay marriage is unnatural.

These two beliefs present major obstacles to whatever changes we could expect the pope's statements to have on Catholics. Even if Catholics paid more attention to other moral issues, there's no way that these two would just fade into the background. While this Pope hasn't talked about abortion in relation to the holocaust yet, his whole killing Jesus rhetoric isn't going to make people act any differently. It just sounds better on paper. 

How about gay marriage? Let's say the Pope's statements make a huge difference. Gay people will continue being judged regardless of how lovingly Catholics talk about/act towards them. Not only is their sexuality deemed unnatural, but it also restricts them from joining the priesthood or getting married. This presents a huge problem for many gay Catholics who, no matter how accepting the Church is of them, will still have problems coming out to their parents who expect them to follow one of these two callings. It can also create situations in which gay people deny their sexuality, as they feel it makes them abnormal and not useful to the Catholic community. The best thing Pope Francis could do, if he could even get away with it, is to distance the Church from the legality of this issue by adopting a winchesteronian view of government. 

 

Edited September 21, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[4588686]

Sure Hasan, but there were no illusions over the positions of JPII or Benedict. They were very expressive in their explanations when dealing with matters of contention, treating them with utmost delicacy. They never isolated the issues against the whole of the gospel, and always with charity, but yet again they were mocked and ridiculed. Perhaps you know what Francis personally believes, but in effect he is willing to no longer fight over these issues. He is willing to accept that abortion, contraception, same sex marriages, etc, will continue. In essence, he is retreating to higher ground. This is why the likes of pro-abortion groups are thanking Francis, it's not like they admire him for his religiousity.

 

Abortion rights groups are composed of individuals.  Many of whom were raised Catholic but feel completely unwelcome in the Church.  

 

NARAL did not endorse or thank Pope Francis.  The communication's department in NARAL composed a graphic.  Why?  Probably because they see it as an opportunity to not look like they are dogmatically hostile to the Church.  Was there much thought put in behind it?  Probably not.   

Edited September 21, 2013 by Hasan

[Maggyie]

 

 

NARAL did not endorse or thank Pope Francis. 

 

 

Their thank you note was signed, Pro Choice Women Everywhere.

 

I think the two groups "Pro Choice Women Everywhere" and "NARAL" have significant overlap, don't you?

 

 

 

 

 

[4588686]

Their thank you note was signed, Pro Choice Women Everywhere.

 

I think the two groups "Pro Choice Women Everywhere" and "NARAL" have significant overlap, don't you?

 

 

Yes.  I mean that NARAL as an organization was not endorsing Pope Francis.  The communication department put it out.  It literally means nothing.  Except what you project upon it.  

[Vincent Vega]

Yes.  I mean that NARAL as an organization was not endorsing Pope Francis.  The communication department put it out.  It literally means nothing.  Except what you project upon it.  

Come on, isn't that a little disingenuous? If a higher-up in the GOP sent a letter of support to the Klan on party letterhead, would it be reasonable to expect people to say, "Well, I mean, he doesn't speak for the party as a whole." No, that's preposterous -- they'd catch all kinds of flak (rightly so), heads would roll, apologies would be made, etc.

 

Until/unless NARAL redacts the graphic (assuming this was sent out via the official NARAL twitter, which I understand it was) and reprimands the individual who went rogue and posted it without authorization, I think it is perfectly acceptable to suppose that the organization as a whole support the message.