Interview With Pope Francis In America Magazine

[Apotheoun]

I respect Pope Francis because he holds the office of the bishop of Rome, but that does not mean that I have to agree with everything he says in the media.

[Era Might]

I see, so it is not because he is the pope; instead it is because you personally believe that he has a special charism, and that is what makes what he says important. Prove to me that he has this special charism.

 

Hold on, I'll write up the theorem to prove it.

[Era Might]

I respect Pope Francis because he holds the office of the bishop of Rome, but that does not mean that I have to agree with everything he says in the media.

 

That's fine. But I appreciate the witness Pope Francis has given here. Ignatius has spoken through Francis, and it's a remarkable interview.

[Apotheoun]

Hold on, I'll write up the theorem to prove it.

Thanks, you said all I needed to know in this post.

[Apotheoun]

That's fine. But I appreciate the witness Pope Francis has given here. Ignatius has spoken through Francis, and it's a remarkable interview.

I am glad for you. I suppose we will have to agree to disagree as far as the interview is concerned.

[Apotheoun]

Era, I am glad that you see something special in Pope Francis, and I hope that that feeling gives you comfort. 

 

I see something special in many of the people I interact with in my own life, and you might agree with me about some of them, and not about others. 

 

I suppose these types of feelings must simply be a part of the mystery of human existence.

[Era Might]

 

Era, I am glad that you see something special in Pope Francis, and I hope that that feeling gives you comfort. 

 

I see something special in many of the people I interact with in my own life, and you might agree with me about some of them, and not about others. 

 

I suppose these types of feelings must simply be a part of the mystery of human existence.

 

 

Yes, there are moments of grace in many areas of life. But when it converges on such a major stage, such as the Papacy, and such unique circumstances, such as a Jesuit Pope, then it becomes part of the stream of history and not merely personal experience. Unfortunately, I don't think what the Pope is saying will be much received, and the people who understand what he is saying are probably already doing the transformative work he is speaking about.

[Apotheoun]

Yes, there are moments of grace in many areas of life. But when it converges on such a major stage, such as the Papacy, and such unique circumstances, such as a Jesuit Pope, then it becomes part of the stream of history and not merely personal experience. Unfortunately, I don't think what the Pope is saying will be much received, and the people who understand what he is saying are probably already doing the transformative work he is speaking about.

For you that may be true, but I see no "special charism." For me Pope Francis is the bishop of Rome, and because he holds that office he is important to Catholics, most especially to Roman Catholics. But I do not consider him to be any more special than Pope Benedict or Pope John Paul II. I liked Pope Benedict greatly, but I never would have claimed that he had some "special charism" that made him important; instead, he was important because he was the Patriarch of the Roman Church.

Edited September 23, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Era Might]

For you that may be true, but I see no "special charism." For me Pope Francis is the bishop of Rome, and because he holds that office he is important to Catholics, most especially to Roman Catholics. But I do not consider him to be any more special than Pope Benedict or Pope John Paul II. I liked Pope Benedict greatly, but I never would have claimed that he had some "special charism" that made him important; instead, he was important because he was the Patriarch of the Roman Church.

 

I believe God works through people and their charisms. If I had not not known the person being interviewed was a Pope, I still would be humbled at the profound things he has to say. He just happens to be the Pope. And as his comments suggest, that could work against him...as he says, the prophetic and the institutional do not coincide.

[Apotheoun]

I do not have a problem with that, but I just do not see this "special charism" that you are talking about when it comes to Pope Francis. If anything I am somewhat unimpressed by his pontificate so far.

[Era Might]

I do not have a problem with that, but I just do not see this "special charism" that you are talking about when it comes to Pope Francis. If anything I am somewhat unimpressed by his pontificate so far.

 

It's unfortunate that for a man who has served Christ as a Jesuit priest, bishop, and now Pope, you cannot see any special charism in what this man brings to the church and the world. It's kind of ironic that you are criticizing him for what you perceive as his failure to meet your standard of how the Gospel should live and move in the world, and yet here is a man whose entire life has been given over to the Gospel, in a very literal way: poverty, chastity, and obedience. If you are unimpressed, perhaps it is because you seek signs and wonders, and cannot see in this interview a man giving birth to Christ in much of what he is saying. If I were in a conversation with him, I would love to discuss much of what he says...respecting someone does not mean agreeing with every nuance of what they say. But it is a travesty when a wise man speaks, and the deep truth of what he says gets drowned out in petty nuances. I don't know how anyone reading this interview could come away thinking: well, so much for truth and morality. If anyone follows what Francis is saying, it is that Christ is everything, not our self-righteousness, not our sin, not our ideologies, not our knowledge, but Christ is all in all, and that to follow him as Pope Francis has done is a profound journey. I'm sorry you cannot see a special charism in a man who is overflowing with it.

[Apotheoun]

Era, I have known many priests, both good and bad, and I have respect for the office of the priesthood, but I do not have, nor will I ever have, a cultish devotion to any particular priest or bishop. I am sure that Pope Francis is a nice man, but I simply do not see this "special charism" that you are talking about, and your constant reference to his being a Jesuit does not strike me as all that impressive. I have met a couple great Jesuits, but their membership in that order did not make them exceptional. They seemed like good priests to me, but I would not assign any "special charism" to them just because they were religious priests instead of secular priests. As far as self-righteousness is concerned, speaking the truth is not self-righteous, or Christ - who always spoke the truth - would have been guilty of that sin Himself, and all Christians know that Christ was sinless. So as I said, I see Pope Francis as a nice man who I agree with on some issues and disagree with on others. Although even my judgment about him being "nice" is based upon what I read in the media, because after all I do not know him personally. Finally, I simply see no point in deifying him and making him into some kind of living saint.

Edited September 23, 2013 by Apotheoun

[KnightofChrist]

Era what do you mean by charism? What special (unique) supernatural extraordinary gift of God (charism) does Pope Francis have? I don't see him being more extra special than other Popes. So please explain.

[Era Might]

Era, I have know many priest, both good and bad, and I have respect for the office of a priest, but I do not have, nor will I ever have, a cultish devotion to any particular priest or bishop. I am sure that Pope Francis is a nice man, but I simply do not see this "special charism" that you are talking about, and your constant reference to his being a Jesuit does not strike me as all that impressive. I have met a couple great Jesuits, but their membership in that order did not make them exceptional. They seem like good priests to me, but I would not assign any "special charism" to them just because they were religious priests instead of secular priests. As far as self-righteousness is concerned, speaking the truth is not self-righteous, or Christ - who always spoke the truth - would have been guilty of that sin Himself, and all Christians know that Christ was sinless. So as I said, I see Pope Francis as a nice man - although I do not know him personally and so even that judgment is simply one formed by what I see in the media - who I agree with on some issues and disagree with on others. I simply see no point in deifying him and making him into some kind of living saint.

 

That strikes me as a Protestant mentality. Catholics have always been attuned to the here and now...apparitions, devotions, feasts, saints, prophets, popes, holy men, snatching relics before the saint died, etc. etc. In the New Testament, of course, the exchange of charisms was very important, as St. Paul discusses when he encourages everyone how to share their charisms. It's one of the things the Pope talks about in the interview:

 

The ministers of the Gospel must be people who can warm the hearts of the people, who walk through the dark night with them, who know how to dialogue and to descend themselves into their people’s night, into the darkness, but without getting lost. The people of God want pastors, not clergy acting like bureaucrats or government officials. The bishops, particularly, must be able to support the movements of God among their people with patience, so that no one is left behind. But they must also be able to accompany the flock that has a flair for finding new paths.

 

What is remarkable about what the Pope saying is one can see how deeply rooted in prayer it is. And Jesuit spirituality. The fact that he is a Jesuit is very significant, because it is part of who he is, and in the context of the historical moment, he is bringing something to an office that is not Jesuit. As I said in my initial response, it is clear that this man is a Jesuit, thinks like a Jesuit, prays like a Jesuit, and that is a VERY unique charism in the context of the papacy.

[Era Might]

Era what do you mean by charism? What special (unique) supernatural extraordinary gift of God (charism) does Pope Francis have? I don't see him being more extra special than other Popes. So please explain.

 

I would say his charism is prophecy. He is, after all, a religious priest, and a Jesuit, and that charism of the prophetic is what he brings to an office which is normally associated with diocesan priests.

 

“Religious men and women are prophets,” says the pope. “They are those who have chosen a following of Jesus that imitates his life in obedience to the Father, poverty, community life and chastity. In this sense, the vows cannot end up being caricatures; otherwise, for example, community life becomes hell, and chastity becomes a way of life for unfruitful bachelors. The vow of chastity must be a vow of fruitfulness. In the church, the religious are called to be prophets in particular by demonstrating how Jesus lived on this earth, and to proclaim how the kingdom of God will be in its perfection. A religious must never give up prophecy. This does not mean opposing the hierarchical part of the church, although the prophetic function and the hierarchical structure do not coincide. I am talking about a proposal that is always positive, but it should not cause timidity. Let us think about what so many great saints, monks and religious men and women have done, from St. Anthony the Abbot onward. Being prophets may sometimes imply making waves. I do not know how to put it.... Prophecy makes noise, uproar, some say ‘a mess.’ But in reality, the charism of religious people is like yeast: prophecy announces the spirit of the Gospel.”

[Apotheoun]

That strikes me as a Protestant mentality. Catholics have always been attuned to the here and now...apparitions, devotions, feasts, saints, prophets, popes, holy men, snatching relics before the saint died, etc. etc. In the New Testament, of course, the exchange of charisms was very important, as St. Paul discusses when he encourages everyone how to share their charisms. It's one of the things the Pope talks about in the interview:

 

“Religious men and women are prophets,” says the pope. “They are those who have chosen a following of Jesus that imitates his life in obedience to the Father, poverty, community life and chastity. In this sense, the vows cannot end up being caricatures; otherwise, for example, community life becomes hell, and chastity becomes a way of life for unfruitful bachelors. The vow of chastity must be a vow of fruitfulness. In the church, the religious are called to be prophets in particular by demonstrating how Jesus lived on this earth, and to proclaim how the kingdom of God will be in its perfection. A religious must never give up prophecy. This does not mean opposing the hierarchical part of the church, although the prophetic function and the hierarchical structure do not coincide. I am talking about a proposal that is always positive, but it should not cause timidity. Let us think about what so many great saints, monks and religious men and women have done, from St. Anthony the Abbot onward. Being prophets may sometimes imply making waves. I do not know how to put it.... Prophecy makes noise, uproar, some say ‘a mess.’ But in reality, the charism of religious people is like yeast: prophecy announces the spirit of the Gospel.”

Every Christian - by baptism is a priest and prophet - so I am not gonna buy what you are selling, and just because Pope Francis said something that you like in an interview it does not follow that everyone else is going to assign that particular comment an earth-shattering character.

 

Finally, as far as Protestantism is concerned, there is nothing more Protestant than the cult of personality. Do I respect Pope Francis? I respect his office, but I do not know him at all as a person, because I have never even met the man, and so the respect I give to him is in fact based solely upon his office as a bishop. Perhaps that is why I refuse to turn him into some kind of idol.

Edited September 23, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

What is remarkable about what the Pope saying is one can see how deeply rooted in prayer it is. And Jesuit spirituality. The fact that he is a Jesuit is very significant, because it is part of who he is, and in the context of the historical moment, he is bringing something to an office that is not Jesuit. As I said in my initial response, it is clear that this man is a Jesuit, thinks like a Jesuit, prays like a Jesuit, and that is a VERY unique charism in the context of the papacy.

Pope Benedict also seemed deeply rooted in prayer, both personal and liturgical. So I fail to see why you want to focus so much attention on Pope Francis. Do you think he would be interested in all this attention?

[Era Might]

Every Christian - by baptism is a priest and prophet - so I am not gonna buy what you are selling, and just because Pope Francis said something that you like in an interview it does not follow that everyone else is going to assign that particular comment an earth-shattering character.

 

Finally, as far as Protestantism is concerned, there is nothing more Protestant than the cult of personality. Do I respect Pope Francis? I respect his office, but I do not know him at all as a person, because I have never even met the man, and so the respect I give to him is in fact based solely upon his office as a bishop. Perhaps that is why I refuse to turn him into some kind of idol.

 

You really have a unique charism of missing the point. Cult of personality? Lol. Forget it.

[Apotheoun]

You really have a unique charism of missing the point. Cult of personality? Lol. Forget it.

Actually I get your point. I just do not agree with you.

 

You never answered my earlier question: is Pope Francis poor? 

 

Instead you just copy and paste quotes where Pope Francis talks about poverty. As my Orthodox friend said to me about him, "Talk, talk, talk, talk. That seems to be all he does."

Edited September 23, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

By the way I have been poor, and I am not financially well off at the present moment. Does Pope Francis have to worry where his next meal is coming from? Does he suffer the distress caused by being unemployed? Does he have to worry about where he is going to sleep at night? Or does he worry about sheltering himself from the weather? Quite frankly he looks pretty well off living in the papal guest apartments.

Edited September 23, 2013 by Apotheoun