How Do I Know If There's A God?

[Fidei Defensor]

Apostles were probably misguided but committed believers caught up in the whole thing. Doesn't mean they were lunatics. Travolta isn't a drooling idiot but he's giving much of his money time and effort to Scientology, as is many others. Their commitment to such an absurd institution doesn't make it a reality.

There is no tangible proof a God exists. His existence is just as logical or illogical as non existence. As believers are want to say, Fairh is solely a gift from God, so if you can't believe, obviously you are in the majority that aren't God's chosen. Kinda like the Emporer's New Clothes with violence.

The problem I have with that theory is that if Jesus was crucified and killed, what did the Apostles have to gain by getting "caught up," as you say, and carrying on with their new found faith?  Even in the Bible they point out that many "revolutionaries" have come, but upon being taken care of, their followers disbanded—

 

"Then he addressed the Sanhedrin: "Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail." Acts 5:35-38

 

​Christianity came to conquer the entire Western civilization.  It seems a bit, well, unlikely, if it were nothing more than the fantasies of a group of misled men.

[Era Might]

The problem I have with that theory is that if Jesus was crucified and killed, what did the Apostles have to gain by getting "caught up," as you say, and carrying on with their new found faith?  Even in the Bible they point out that many "revolutionaries" have come, but upon being taken care of, their followers disbanded—

 

"Then he addressed the Sanhedrin: "Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail." Acts 5:35-38

 

​Christianity came to conquer the entire Western civilization.  It seems a bit, well, unlikely, if it were nothing more than the fantasies of a group of misled men.

 

Christianity inherited the Roman empire and a long legacy of pagan thinkers. Christianity was fortunate that it embraced pagan thinkers, because biblical modes of thinking aren't exactly focused on this world. Christian bishops would rail against the anger of God being visited on his people, while skeptical pagans would look and say what are you talking about? There are rational explanations, why are we going backwards to mythology and divine intervention? Maybe an earthquake is just an earthquake.

 

Another important point is that while Christianity inherited the Roman empire, it also lost it. The formation of "Europe" as we know it followed, but modernity only emerged as Western Civilization stopped thinking religiously and started thinking rationally (starting with the renaissance which went back to classical sources).

 

What does a man have to gain from working 60 hours a week? Probably some nice things, but dedication to something is not proof of God. The rise of Islam was also a remarkably unexpected occurrence.

Edited May 15, 2014 by Era Might

[Fidei Defensor]

Christianity inherited the Roman empire and a long legacy of pagan thinkers. Christianity was fortunate that it embraced pagan thinkers, because biblical modes of thinking aren't exactly focused on this world. Christian bishops would rail against the anger of God being visited on his people, while skeptical pagans would look and say what are you talking about? There are rational explanations, why are we going backwards to mythology and divine intervention? Maybe an earthquake is just an earthquake.

 

Another important point is that while Christianity inherited the Roman empire, it also lost it. The formation of "Europe" as we know it followed, but modernity only emerged as Western Civilization stopped thinking religiously and started thinking rationally (starting with the renaissance which went back to classical sources).

 

What does a man have to gain from working 60 hours a week? Probably some nice things, but dedication to something is not proof of God. The rise of Islam was also a remarkably unexpected occurrence.

Of course, you are correct, dedication alone is not proof of anything by itself.

 

I do find it a bit of an accomplishment for the Church to still be around to this day, however.

[Era Might]

Of course, you are correct, dedication alone is not proof of anything by itself.

 

I do find it a bit of an accomplishment for the Church to still be around to this day, however.

 

An accomplishment in what sense? The church has done a lot to help build a civilization, no doubt, but it has lost its power, and just as paganism disappeared once it no longer had a social context (because Christianity had displaced it), Christianity has also been disappearing in its own civilization. That isn't a good sign when a civilization you helped build is strong despite you and not because of you. I don't think Christianity will disappear, because modern civilization values things like pluralism, personal faith, etc. But the church is now just one religion among many...thanks to the right to religious freedom that the world had to slaughter its way to create.

 

Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam have all been around a long time as well, just not in the West. They, too, survive because they live in civilizations they helped create. But even they are facing issues of secularization and how to survive when their people start living in modernity and less in their traditional civilization, a battle which the church has more or less admitted defeat on, and now tries to work with the world that overthrew it.

[Fidei Defensor]

An accomplishment in what sense? The church has done a lot to help build a civilization, no doubt, but it has lost its power, and just as paganism disappeared once it no longer had a social context (because Christianity had displaced it), Christianity has also been disappearing in its own civilization. That isn't a good sign when a civilization you helped build is strong despite you and not because of you. I don't think Christianity will disappear, because modern civilization values things like pluralism, personal faith, etc. But the church is now just one religion among many...thanks to the right to religious freedom that the world had to slaughter its way to create.

 

Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam have all been around a long time as well, just not in the West. They, too, survive because they live in civilizations they helped create. But even they are facing issues of secularization and how to survive when their people start living in modernity and less in their traditional civilization, a battle which the church has more or less admitted defeat on, and now tries to work with the world that overthrew it.

An accomplishment because the Church still exists as an organization. Disembodied religions still exist from long ago, but not many can boast an actual centralized organization that has outlasted civilizations.

[Era Might]

An accomplishment because the Church still exists as an organization. Disembodied religions still exist from long ago, but not many can boast an actual centralized organization that has outlasted civilizations.

 

I find that the least remarkable thing about the church. Its centralized organization is also relatively modern, as it had to shore itself up to defend its place in a society that was fast moving on. And going even beyond that, I would say that the centralized organization is one of the unfortunate legacies it has left modern civilization, which has imitated the church and its desire to keep its hand in everything through a vast bureaucracy.

[Fidei Defensor]

Just as possible that the mythology grew along with and after this human's few years. An leader speaking from the grave can't be killed again. An appealing transcendent message to people's under occupation. You can oppress and kill me in this life, but I'll be in glory in the next life. What's not to like if you have no hope in this world. And the madness grew.
People believe reverend Moon is a messiah, Jim Jones, David Koresh, they'll be beamed up on a comet, or we have an inner alien. Many swear by it and sacrifice their family, fortune, and lives. Lucky happenstance, the right social context and politics, and were off to the history books that are written by the winners. Hidden golden tablets , a divinely inspired council, enduring words of common sense with believers striving for lofty goals, not necessarily with evil intent but with the best motives...
It's human nature to want to believe in something, to make bearable the difficult and incomprehensible. We've evolved into being able to imagine and ponder the intangible. That doesn't make our dreams and desires concrete realities, golden tablets, Kaptu, imams in wells, gods with hammers, or Underdog.

Honestly, humans are very attached to their senses and so I don't think its all that natural to find "invisible" beings or forces to believe in. We want to believe in what we see happening, its why science has always been important (whether under that name or simply discovering nature.) I don't see it as a necessarily natural trait to make up something supernatural.

[Fidei Defensor]

I find that the least remarkable thing about the church. Its centralized organization is also relatively modern, as it had to shore itself up to defend its place in a society that was fast moving on. And going even beyond that, I would say that the centralized organization is one of the unfortunate legacies it has left modern civilization, which has imitated the church and its desire to keep its hand in everything through a vast bureaucracy.

Then we will have to agree to disagree. I'm not fond of bureaucracy, but I do think that the Church deserves some credit for keeping its place in the world and avoiding the prevailing "gates of hell," so to speak.

[Anomaly]

Honestly, humans are very attached to their senses and so I don't think its all that natural to find "invisible" beings or forces to believe in. We want to believe in what we see happening, its why science has always been important (whether under that name or simply discovering nature.) I don't see it as a necessarily natural trait to make up something supernatural.

Seriously? I just... Oh no you didn't say... You did pay a little attention in school...

[Fidei Defensor]

Seriously? I just... Oh no you didn't say... You did pay a little attention in school...

Thanks for that helpful response.

[Anomaly]

Thanks for that helpful response.

It was the kindest thing I could say. You essentially dismissed any sense if imagination, mysticism, abstract musing, etc., as being antithetical to human nature.

I think our ability and need to imagine what we can't see is a fundamentally critical aspect of what makes us human. Maybe you misthought what you wrote. Yours is the limiting materialism that Socrates accuses atheists as being.

[Fidei Defensor]

It was the kindest thing I could say. You essentially dismissed any sense if imagination, mysticism, abstract musing, etc., as being antithetical to human nature.

I think our ability and need to imagine what we can't see is a fundamentally critical aspect of what makes us human. Maybe you misthought what you wrote. Yours is the limiting materialism that Socrates accuses atheists as being.

I didn't say we don't imagine things or have imagination. What I did say is that I don't think it's necessarily natural for humans to make up something supernatural for lack of a natural explanation.

[Fidei Defensor]

For the sake of furthering the conversation, "what exactly do you mean by that?"

 

As I mentioned, humans rely on their senses. Yes, they have imagination. Yes, they can imagine things that don't necessarily exist in the real world.  However, when it comes to the natural world, humans use their senses to discover their world. I don't think it is an unavoidable conclusion that for lack of better explanation, humans jump to something "supernatural" and invisible. 

 

Now, when it comes to meaning in life, yes, I can see humans turning to something they can't necessarily see to find and make meaning. However, I would argue that this is because of the natural inclination placed in our hearts towards God, not that we are somehow biologically "wired" to make that kind of thing up.

Edited May 15, 2014 by tardis ad astra

[Canonistwannabe]

There are many approaches to this question. My favorite is taking the logical approach by viewing Saint Thomas Aquinas' five proofs. Though there is the more spiritual approach which both Saint Anselm and Saint Augustine take. Then there is also Paschal's wager for those who like to bet.

[Benedictus]

I wouldn't say philosophy or theology are that helpful as starting points. I don't think faith is the starting point either. I think experience, time and openness are the starting points. I started off seeing God as a poetic expression for the vast awe and amazingness of the universe. It was rooted in gratitude and love for life and creativity.

He was there with me: not as some man on a cloud, but with us here and now. He is with those experiencing the blue of the sky and the light of the soul. He is with the ones suffering, cold and dying. I see God as part of the creative and regenerative process. I believe he acts through us, in all sorts of ways, to be present in the world.
When we are at our best, God is there carrying and buiding us up. When we are at our worst, his spirit attempts to lift us up towards new life. I think God is a verb, not a noun. He is someone I intereact with and experience all around me. I have an interconnected and codependant relationship with all that is. My direct and personal relationship (the form of reference that expands within and beyond all: 'the divine') showed up in the human form and example of Jesus. The spark of his divinity, compassion and self sacrifice is God given. When we take the host within us, we become aware of the this reality already there -  that we are at one with him and all that is good and loving.

Edited June 7, 2014 by Benedictus