How Do I Know If There's A God?

[Ice_nine]

You're right.  Christ was either a liar, a lunatic, or God.   Sorry, I missed one.  Also thanks for that link.  I will check it out.  I don't know if it is going to be worth my time though.

 

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 I believe the idea that Jesus was none of these things, merely a charismatic figure who had a mythology built around him by other people through no real fault of his own, is en vogue. Maybe that's what Hassan was getting at?

Edited May 4, 2014 by Ice_nine

[4588686]

 I believe the idea that Jesus was none of these things, merely a charismatic figure who had a mythology built around him by other people through no real fault of his own, is en vogue. Maybe that's what Hassan was getting at?

 

 

Sure.  That's also an option. 

[Guest]

I don't know how atheist do it.....Because they now have to deal with the facts this universe was fine tuned for things to happen the way they did.....The odds are to slim that it happened by chanch.....So their hand is forced and they have to believe in the multiverse and this is just the lucky universe things worked out in....

Edited May 4, 2014 by Guest

[Anomaly]

An angel appears to you and tells you you're having God's child. That would be pretty convincing to me, personally.

That's how you know you picked the right mushrooms IMO.

[Guest]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oyH2D4-tzfM 17:00

[Socrates]

 I believe the idea that Jesus was none of these things, merely a charismatic figure who had a mythology built around him by other people through no real fault of his own, is en vogue. Maybe that's what Hassan was getting at?

 

This idea, while popular, has its own set of very serious problems when examined in any depth.

 

Among other things, this would mean that the first generation of Christians were willing to go to great lengths, and risk or give up anything, including their lives, in order to knowingly perpetuate a fraud or hoax.

Or else, the entire early Christian community was utterly mad and delusional.

 

The "lunatic or liar" problem is simply transferred from Jesus Himself to His immediate followers.

[Anomaly]

The "lunatic or liar" problem is simply transferred from Jesus Himself to His immediate followers.

It's not a lie if you believe it. Insanity is not required to be mistaken.

[Fidei Defensor]

It's not a lie if you believe it. Insanity is not required to be mistaken.

It is, however, required if one is going to die for their lie.

[Anomaly]

It is, however, required if one is going to die for their lie.

People are willingly marteryed for all kinds of beliefs. If you know it's a lie, yes that's insane, but a known lie is not a belief.

[Fidei Defensor]

People are willingly marteryed for all kinds of beliefs. If you know it's a lie, yes that's insane, but a known lie is not a belief.

Indeed, there are people who die for many things. However, the first Christians were within living memory of Jesus. If they weren't convinced he had a message worth dying for, they wouldn't have.

[Anomaly]

Indeed, there are people who die for many things. However, the first Christians were within living memory of Jesus. If they weren't convinced he had a message worth dying for, they wouldn't have.

.
So what is your conclusion?

[4588686]

It is, however, required if one is going to die for their lie.

No it's not. Lots of young men during WWI went off to fight for a Tsar who they believed to be a representative of God on earth.

They were wrong. Whoops

[4588686]

This is why this argument is so bad. It just lacks any real nuance. Human beings are complicated and social movements, particularly radical ones are complicated. This messiness only is exacerbated when the events and actors existed 2,000 years ago and the historical record is scant.

[Fidei Defensor]

This is why this argument is so bad. It just lacks any real nuance. Human beings are complicated and social movements, particularly radical ones are complicated. This messiness only is exacerbated when the events and actors existed 2,000 years ago and the historical record is scant.

This I will agree with.

[Socrates]

It's not a lie if you believe it. Insanity is not required to be mistaken.

 

If Jesus Christ was not in fact  the Only Begotten Son of God, nor claimed to be, and did not work miracles and rise from the dead, then Christ's followers who knew Him and preached these things were either deliberately lying (as knowing Christ, they would know things to be false), or else were hallucinating or deluded (in other words, insane).

 

As the Gospels and other Christian works such as the Pauline letters were written well within living memory of these events (claiming to be eyewitness accounts or written from eyewitness accounts), if they spoke falsely regarding Christ and His deeds, then surely there would be opposition from Christ's actual apostles who knew him if these were false, and Jesus were nothing more than a good guy with some nice moral teachings. (Especially as an man's claim to divinity was considered a grave offense of blasphemy by the Jews.) However, there is absolutely no historical record or evidence of such opposition.  For example, St. Paul became close with apostles of Christ who new Jesus, and was accepted by them, and his beliefs regarding Christ appear to be in accord with accepted Christian belief at the time.

 

As in those days the risks and costs of being Christian were pretty high, including persecution and death, people would generally need to have good reason to believe the Christian message in order to convert to the new Faith.

 

Interestingly, the Jewish Talmud, which is strongly anti-Christian, does not deny the miracles of Jesus Christ, but claims He worked them by the power of the devil rather than God.