New Obamacare Thread

[KnightofChrist]

i am no democrat but i think its unfair to bring up things the party did in the past when the party obviously does not subscribe to those beliefs and the vast majority of its members were not in office when these things were happening.  i mean its no different than attacking america for its support of slavery years ago.  i guess we should always hold that against the country until the end of time.  

 

both parties are currently horrible.  both parties are pro-death.  both parties are anti-civil rights.  both parties are sexists.  both parties support racism and class warfare.  both parties are horrible for this country.  the only thing worse for this country than both parties is either party in complete control of the country.

 

If the party had actually apologized for all their historical crimes against humanity, and it stopped it's current crimes against humanity perhaps I would agree with you, but perhaps not.

[havok579257]

If the party had actually apologized for all their historical crimes against humanity, and it stopped it's current crimes against humanity perhaps I would agree with you, but perhaps not.

 

 

have the republicans apologized for their crimes?  also should members who were not even alive when the party did this apologize for something they had nothing to do with?  should we as americans, who were not even alive during slavery apologize for something the country did?  maybe we should also give slavery relatives repirations?  i think its ridiculous to demand an apology for something that happened in the past when its members were not even part of that group or not even alive.

[NotreDame]

its hard to lighten up when people like cruz do all the liberals work for them and help give liberals more power in america and thus help[ push the liberal agenda in america.

 

I'm not really sure how to engage in the discussion at this point, but I did find this comment interesting. 

 

Havok, regardless of whether you'd like to admit it or not, your posts certainly read like they are written by a "liberal."  Do you not consider yourself one?
 

[CrossCuT]

Both parties have their evils, both parties are out of touch. However, if we are going to be real in comparisons of out of touch and which is worse, the party that is most out of touch with reality has been and now is Democrat Party. It was the Party of Slavery, the Party against the 13th, 14th and 15th amendments to the Constitution, the Party of Jim Crow, the Party of the Ku Klux Klan, the Party of Segregation, the Party of Lynching, the Party against Civil Rights, and now it is the Party of Mass-Infanticide and Anti-Religious Liberty and other basic rights, etc. At no time in it's history has it not been in support of some sort of grave crime, or acted effectively as a hate group. It has always claimed to fight for the little person, but only the persons they see as persons, not the persons they deem non-persons.

 

A lot of those are very old and no one supports them if they are even half of a decent person. I dont think they are good examples.

 

I agree that the democratic party has a big problem where abortion is concerned, but the Republican party's devotion to life ends after birth. They dont care about protecting the poor, weak, and the old. They are very out of touch with society RIGHT NOW. 

They are judgmental, marginalize the poor, and continue to side on things that harm society more that help such as the war on drugs, corporate greed, the increasing income inequality. So many times have i witnessed republican politicians say the most horrible things about the poor.

 

We have a big problem in the US right now...we are impoverishing ourselves. One side is calling out for justice, the other is playing a blame game. Blame the poor, they are just lazy. They are continuing to ignore the facts that education and healthcare are not as accessible anymore...that families are being broken up by poverty, drug wars, and race/income discrimination.

 

The republicans want to build an america where only the rich and privileged succeed. They care nothing for the pains of the poor. The poor are written off and that is a crime.

 

Republicans may have been a beacon of light in the past, but they are not right now. I used to be a republican, but as i grew older in this current state of the country, I couldnt side with them anymore. I feel they were cruel and out of touch. 

[havok579257]

I'm not really sure how to engage in the discussion at this point, but I did find this comment interesting. 

 

Havok, regardless of whether you'd like to admit it or not, your posts certainly read like they are written by a "liberal."  Do you not consider yourself one?
 

 

 

yep, i am automatically a liberal because i don't blindly follow the tea party and ted cruz?  its sad that politics has come to this in america.  unless you cow tow the tea party line, your automatically deemed a liberal.  even moderate republicans are deemed liberals because they don't subscribe to the far right theology.

 

if you honestly think my posts support liberalism, your completely blinded by the far right wing philosophy of, unless your not extreme far right, your a liberal

[KnightofChrist]

have the republicans apologized for their crimes?

Yes, of course. A good start was founding themselves as the Abolitionist party, abolishing slavery, passing Civil Rights, and passing Pro-life laws that wouldn't likely exist if Democrats had their way. But there needs to be more.

also should members who were not even alive when the party did this apologize for something they had nothing to do with?

Yes.

should we as americans, who were not even alive during slavery apologize for something the country did?

Yes.

maybe we should also give slavery relatives repirations?

Maybe.

i think its ridiculous to demand an apology for something that happened in the past when its members were not even part of that group or not even alive.

Well isn't that special, good for you.

[CrossCuT]

KOC, stahp.

[KnightofChrist]

A lot of those are very old and no one supports them if they are even half of a decent person. I dont think they are good examples.
 
I agree that the democratic party has a big problem where abortion is concerned, but the Republican party's devotion to life ends after birth. They dont care about protecting the poor, weak, and the old. They are very out of touch with society RIGHT NOW. 
They are judgmental, marginalize the poor, and continue to side on things that harm society more that help such as the war on drugs, corporate greed, the increasing income inequality. So many times have i witnessed republican politicians say the most horrible things about the poor.
 
We have a big problem in the US right now...we are impoverishing ourselves. One side is calling out for justice, the other is playing a blame game. Blame the poor, they are just lazy. They are continuing to ignore the facts that education and healthcare are not as accessible anymore...that families are being broken up by poverty, drug wars, and race/income discrimination.
 
The republicans want to build an america where only the rich and privileged succeed. They care nothing for the pains of the poor. The poor are written off and that is a crime.
 
Republicans may have been a beacon of light in the past, but they are not right now. I used to be a republican, but as i grew older in this current state of the country, I couldnt side with them anymore. I feel they were cruel and out of touch.

I don't really care about Republicans, or the Republican Party. What I can't stand is to see the Democrat Party, which is a proven and provable hate group get a pass, or thought the lesser of two evils when they are the greatest evil of the two, and they always have been. No right makes a dåmn if the first right, the right above all rights is not honored. The Democrat Party denies the right to life, to the poorest and most innocent among us, this tells me that their claim to care for the little person is a lie and a sick joke. Edited April 2, 2014 by KnightofChrist

[KnightofChrist]

KOC, stahp.

No.

[Isidore_of_Seville]

Yes, of course. A good start was founding themselves as the Abolitionist party, abolishing slavery, passing Civil Rights, and passing Pro-life laws that wouldn't likely exist if Democrats had their way. But there needs to be more.

 

Yeah... when the Republican party was founded it was indeed a great group of folks! However it is not even close to the same party as it was back then. You can't just choose the bits of history you like and keep talking about them.

 

http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/6ads8g/guess-who-s-coming-to-howard

[CrossCuT]

I don't really care about Republicans, or the Republican Party. What I can't stand is to see the Democrat Party, which is a proven and provable hate group get a pass, or thought the lesser of two evils when they are the greatest evil of the two, and they always have been. No right make a dåmn if the first right, the right above all rights is not honored. The Democrat Party denies the right to life, to the poorest and most innocent among us, this tells me that their claim to care for the little person is a lie and a sick joke.

 

What hate????????????????????

The same hate that Republican Christians have against homosexuals? To the point where we are making LAWS that make discrimination ok??????????????????

 

Should homosexuals should have separate drinking fountains too? Sit in the back of the bus? Be denied rights to be at the bedside of a dying loved one?

 

That same hate?

 

I do NOT defend their stance on abortion at all, I am right along side you. However thats the only thing you seem to be harping on. What else? What hate are they showing?

[havok579257]

I don't really care about Republicans, or the Republican Party. What I can't stand is to see the Democrat Party, which is a proven and provable hate group get a pass, or thought the lesser of two evils when they are the greatest evil of the two, and they always have been. No right makes a dåmn if the first right, the right above all rights is not honored. The Democrat Party denies the right to life, to the poorest and most innocent among us, this tells me that their claim to care for the little person is a lie and a sick joke.

 

 

the democratic party never gets a pass on these board.  are you blind?  the tea party gets a pass even though they stand for many things the church is against.  i honestly don't know what your reading on these board but the vast majority of us on here never give the democrats a pass on their anti-life platforms.  

[NotreDame]

Obamacare was intended by its designers to A) temporarily enrich the insurance industry, and B) fail miserably, to increase interest in a centrally-planned single-payer healthcare system.

 

going back to your original thoughts... I don't like to go into intentions that aren't explicit.  In this case, I really don't think the intention was for the ACA to fail.   I do, however, think that some may have viewed the ACA as something that could provide a transition to a single-payer system and possibly a fully nationalized one in the future.  You see that in some of the commentary from Rahm's brother Ezekiel:

 

By 2025, “fewer than 20 percent of workers in the private sector will receive traditional employer-sponsored health insurance.”

 

Original post here:

 

http://boss.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/03/26/why-employers-will-stop-offering-health-insurance/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

 

Commentary here:

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304418404579465480916914144?mod=WSJ_Opinion_MIDDLETopOpinion&mg=reno64-wsj

 

If that was something he and others felt prior to enactment, then it's fair to say that some saw that as a preferred outcome.  This would result in the ACA marketplaces eventually becoming very nearly a monopsony buyer of health care.  It's not a single payer (which is a true monopsony), but it does provide an easier transition to one than what he have now. 

 

Obviously some people see a single-payer as the ideal or the goal, so a fair number may have seen the ACA as a way to transition to that, but I don't think they realized the ACA roll-out would be as difficult and unpopular as it has been.

[havok579257]

Yes, of course. A good start was founding themselves as the Abolitionist party, abolishing slavery, passing Civil Rights, and passing Pro-life laws that wouldn't likely exist if Democrats had their way. But there needs to be more.


Yes.


Yes.


Maybe.


Well isn't that special, good for you.

 

 

well ok, i don't even know where to start with how ludacris these statements are, so i won't even bother.

[Isidore_of_Seville]

I don't really care about Republicans, or the Republican Party. What I can't stand is to see the Democrat Party, which is a proven and provable hate group get a pass, or thought the lesser of two evils when they are the greatest evil of the two, and they always have been. No right makes a dåmn if the first right, the right above all rights is not honored. The Democrat Party denies the right to life, to the poorest and most innocent among us, this tells me that their claim to care for the little person is a lie and a sick joke.

 

Democrats don't support abortion, they support choice.

[NotreDame]

yep, i am automatically a liberal because i don't blindly follow the tea party and ted cruz?  its sad that politics has come to this in america.  unless you cow tow the tea party line, your automatically deemed a liberal.  even moderate republicans are deemed liberals because they don't subscribe to the far right theology.

 

if you honestly think my posts support liberalism, your completely blinded by the far right wing philosophy of, unless your not extreme far right, your a liberal

 

Yes, your posts read like a liberal because the only other people I've seen demonize republicans and "Capitalism" in the way you have are liberals and on other threads I've seen you support some fairly "Liberal" ideas and platforms. 

 

So I was surprised that you didn't consider yourself a liberal.  So I asked you about it.  And, as usual, I got a nice, thoughtful response from you. 
 

[Isidore_of_Seville]

Obamacare was intended by its designers to A) temporarily enrich the insurance industry, and B) fail miserably, to increase interest in a centrally-planned single-payer healthcare system.

 

It's hard to dispute that Obamacare has so far been the enormous failure it was forecasted to be, even without the website debacle that originated with a nineteenth-century spoils system hire of a friend of Mrs. Obama's.

 

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-19/serfs-%E2%80%93-average-healthcare-premiums-have-soared-39-56-post-obamacare

 

Certain small-government Republicans made an effort to defund the ACA and shutdown the government in the autumn/new year. Their efforts were ostensibly extralegal and the men were portrayed by most media outlets as uncooperative crybabies. The individuals that tried to stop Obamacare/expansion of government were vilified in the media, in congress, and in the public consciousness.

 

Now that we've passed Obamacare and are able to see what is in it (apologies to Ms. Feinstein); however, it's been revealed to serve no one, not even Democrats.

 

http://hotair.com/archives/2014/03/17/abc-democrats-privately-admit-obamacare-is-political-poison/

 

With this in mind, did John Boehner do the right thing to appease the public and media as they gnashed at the bit over conservative resistance? He certainly seems to be the overall winner, allowing the Democrats to sign their own midterm death warrant while cutting off the negative publicity generated by zealous and unpopular Tea Party types being on TV as quickly as possible. However, all Americans are paying the price of his political victory, wearing the millstone of Obamacare about their necks when he could have prevented it by pressing the issue to the brink.

 

More importantly, have Americans learned a valuable lesson about raking insane dissenters over the coals?

 

Pretty sure 7+ million more people with health insurance isn't a failure. With the exception of the rough start of the website, the ACA has actually been going quite well over all. Any negative opinion of yours seems to be just that, an opinion.  The zerohedge article you linked is full of false and misrepresented information. 

 

And Boehner and his fellow tea party members certainly were in the wrong, I must ask, why is this group of people are working so hard to prevent people from getting healthcare? 

Edited April 2, 2014 by Isidore_of_Seville

[havok579257]

Democrats don't support abortion, they support choice.

 

 

no, they support abortion.  they support murder of innocent life.  they just try to make it not seem so bad to the general public by claiming they support choice.  well the choice is to murder or not to murder.  so yes, they support the choice to murder an innocent child.

[Isidore_of_Seville]

no, they support abortion.  they support murder of innocent life.  they just try to make it not seem so bad to the general public by claiming they support choice.  well the choice is to murder or not to murder.  so yes, they support the choice to murder an innocent child.

 

I am personally an anti-abortion Democrat. So, you can either stop generalizing and look at things realistically, or you can keep pulling things out of thin air.

[NotreDame]

Democrats don't support abortion, they support choice.

 

The choice to murder babies, but not the choice to decide if your health plan covers birth control or not.