Graces From Protestant Services?

[mortify ii]

That is the opinion of some. I have read some of the arguments, though I have not watched that video in particular and I intend to do so.

The more widespread opinion is that, SSPX arguments notwithstanding, Society confessions are at least presumably invalid. I have read arguments which intend to show that ecclesia supplet does not come into play. I have likewise read arguments saying why it clearly does.

 

In my opinion, the mere presence of any doubt makes it far wiser simply to be on the safe side and confess to a good priest, in whom you have confidence of his intention and proper form.

 

From the new code of canon law:

 

Can. 144 §1. In factual or legal common error and in positive and probable doubt of law or of fact, the Church supplies executive power of governance for both the external and internal forum.

 

 

Funny enough, Fr. Hesse was discussed a couple times yesterday. I have not listened to him before, but when I get a chance I will. Apparently he is considered quite extreme, though of course being extreme is not the same as always being wrong.

 

 

 

He may be extreme and I can't say I agree with everything, but he is a solid theologian and canon lawyer and makes sense a lot of the time.

[Nihil Obstat]

From the new code of canon law:

[font='Times New Roman']Can. 144 §1. In factual or legal common error and in positive and probable doubt of law or of fact, the Church supplies executive power of governance for both the external and internal forum.[/font]




He may be extreme and I can't say I agree with everything, but he is a solid theologian and canon lawyer and makes sense a lot of the time.

Canon law tends to require a specific skill set to properly interpret. There are arguments on both sides. I know which I want to be true, but I do not feel that I am qualified to add anything to that particular discussion.

[mortify ii]

Canon law tends to require a specific skill set to properly interpret. There are arguments on both sides. I know which I want to be true, but I do not feel that I am qualified to add anything to that particular discussion.

 

I agree, I'm basically going on the authority of Fr Hesse here, but God knows best

[Nihil Obstat]

I agree, I'm basically going on the authority of Fr Hesse here, but God knows best

And as far as authorities go, though many disagree with what he says, most will admit that he is an intelligent man who makes valuable points. Just be aware that others have taken on his arguments and come to different conclusions, so those arguments should also be considered at the very least.

On that note, since I just got to work and we have no customers, I will try watching the video now. :P

[mortify ii]

You must have a sweet job my man

[Nihil Obstat]

You must have a sweet job my man

Actually I really do. I started working in a knife store a few weeks back, so already right there it is something I have an interest in. I am also working to keep the website up and running, and keep it updated, and setting up an ebay store to try to get some non-local sales. Varying success, but it is more about the experience I am getting out of it.

[mortify ii]

Kitchen knives or are we talking more of weapons and hunting gear?

[Nihil Obstat]

Kitchen knives or are we talking more of weapons and hunting gear?

Both, but fewer kitchen knives, and more in the way of folding pocket knives. Just the other day I sold this beauty.

It was borderline poetic how beautiful this knife was, and how it felt in the hand. Like a frakking cliche love story. Guy came in with exactly the same reaction as me. He did not even want to buy anything, just came to look at the new stock. Saw this knife, held it, was a bit put off by the $300 price tag. So he set it down. And picked it up again, and again, and again. At the end of the day he realized that he was going to regret it forever if he did not buy it right then. :P You could see in his face, it was just painful to think about walking out of the store without it.

I was sad to see it go though. I probably would not have been able to justify $300 on it, but at least I could have picked it up a few times a day and felt the silky smoothness of its ball bearing pivot and carbon fiber scales.

[LouisvilleFan]

No reactions? Nobody wants to say anything about it? I am a bit surprised.

Where was the passage from? I haven't read much that fleshed out implicit Baptism by desire, though it's always made sense to me that God balances justice and mercy in the judgement of our souls.

 

One distinct memory from my days attending a Baptist congregation was reading testimonies about how the Holy Spirit spoke and moved during Holy Communion. Keep in mind they strictly believed Communion was a memorial. Yet to read how the Spirit moved powerfully in their memorial of the Last Supper, it was like reading Catholics describe receiving the Body and Blood of our Lord. While the sacrament clearly offers infinitely more in its unseen spiritual reality, the fact remains Christ is generous in every place where sinners are seeking to draw near to Him. To affirm extra-sacramental grace is not like God is cheating on us... He's doing exactly what we expect of Him, to run out beyond the fold to find those who are wandering.

[Nihil Obstat]

Where was the passage from? I haven't read much that fleshed out implicit Baptism by desire, though it's always made sense to me that God balances justice and mercy in the judgement of our souls.

One distinct memory from my days attending a Baptist congregation was reading testimonies about how the Holy Spirit spoke and moved during Holy Communion. Keep in mind they strictly believed Communion was a memorial. Yet to read how the Spirit moved powerfully in their memorial of the Last Supper, it was like reading Catholics describe receiving the Body and Blood of our Lord. While the sacrament clearly offers infinitely more in its unseen spiritual reality, the fact remains Christ is generous in every place where sinners are seeking to draw near to Him. To affirm extra-sacramental grace is not like God is cheating on us... He's doing exactly what we expect of Him, to run out beyond the fold to find those who are wandering.

You may be surprised. Care to guess?

[Perigrina]

I have been looking over this forum (phorum?) trying to figure out if I would fit in at Phatmass and this thread has me wondering what the attitude here is toward traditionally inclined Catholics.  Some of the comments seemed somewhat hostile.  I attend the Extraordinary Form of the Mass when possible.  Is that going to be a problem? 

 

I hope this is not too off-topic.  Should I be asking about this somewhere else?

[Nihil Obstat]

I have been looking over this forum (phorum?) trying to figure out if I would fit in at Phatmass and this thread has me wondering what the attitude here is toward traditionally inclined Catholics.  Some of the comments seemed somewhat hostile.  I attend the Extraordinary Form of the Mass when possible.  Is that going to be a problem? 

 

I hope this is not too off-topic.  Should I be asking about this somewhere else?

You can hang out with me. :hehe:

[mortify ii]

Protestant services ain't got no graces!

[Perigrina]

Protestant services ain't got no graces!

 

If Holy Scripture were to be read at a Protestand service (as it often is) it would remain Holy Scripture and thus be a channel of grace.

[CrossCuT]

From what I understand you get receive grace simply from stubbing your toe by offering it up and not complaining. 

[Anastasia13]

Both, but fewer kitchen knives, and more in the way of folding pocket knives. Just the other day I sold this beauty.

It was borderline poetic how beautiful this knife was, and how it felt in the hand. Like a frakking cliche love story. Guy came in with exactly the same reaction as me. He did not even want to buy anything, just came to look at the new stock. Saw this knife, held it, was a bit put off by the $300 price tag. So he set it down. And picked it up again, and again, and again. At the end of the day he realized that he was going to regret it forever if he did not buy it right then. :P You could see in his face, it was just painful to think about walking out of the store without it.

I was sad to see it go though. I probably would not have been able to justify $300 on it, but at least I could have picked it up a few times a day and felt the silky smoothness of its ball bearing pivot and carbon fiber scales.

Poetic. Nice.

[Nihil Obstat]

Poetic. Nice.

Seriously; I was having a sort of transcendent poetical experience just in thinking about it. People should write ballads about that knife.

[mortify ii]

If Holy Scripture were to be read at a Protestand service (as it often is) it would remain Holy Scripture and thus be a channel of grace.

 

Are Protestant communities means of salvation? Do their services carry salvific graces?

[Perigrina]

Are Protestant communities means of salvation? Do their services carry salvific graces?

 

Protestant communities are not, in themselves, means of salvation.  Elements of sanctification and truth can be found in those communities, but the source of these elements is the Catholic Church. Also, these elements lead people to the Catholic Church.

 

I know people, and perhaps you do too, who, while Protestants, studied Scripture and became convinced of the truth of Catholic teaching through this study.  Does that not sound like salvific grace to you?

[mortify ii]

Protestant communities are not, in themselves, means of salvation.  Elements of sanctification and truth can be found in those communities, but the source of these elements is the Catholic Church. Also, these elements lead people to the Catholic Church.

 

I know people, and perhaps you do too, who, while Protestants, studied Scripture and became convinced of the truth of Catholic teaching through this study.  Does that not sound like salvific grace to you?

 

What do you make of this statement:

 

"In this context, it is extremely important to give a correct and fair presentation of the other Churches and ecclesial communities that the Spirit of Christ does not refrain from using as means of salvation; "moreover, some, even very many, of the outstanding elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church herself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church."(85) Among other things this presentation will help Catholics to have both a deeper understanding of their own faith and a better acquaintance with and esteem for their other Christian brethren, thus facilitating the shared search for the way towards full unity in the whole truth. It should also help non-Catholics to have a better knowledge and appreciation of the Catholic Church and her conviction of being the "universal help toward salvation."