French Dissidence (about Time!)

[Ash Wednesday]

Whenever I hear British people complain about "immigrants" I just stand there feeling awkward and stare at my feet as an American... and an immigrant. 

 

Honestly, next time I'll have to ask them what that sentiment is supposed to mean to me. They'll probably get uncomfortable and try to act all fake polite about it, because, you see, they don't really mean ME, when they say that. Because they KNOW ME, and see me as a real person, I guess. Or maybe it's okay because, I speak English and I'm white but they don't want to come out and say it like that.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Ash Wednesday

[Benedictus]

 

Banning these posters being put up is considered racist and imperialist according to Nihil, something so abhorrent that anyone support a ban that is Catholic should have their faith questioned. Shame on you Nihil, perhaps you should go back to anti-modernist Encyclicals. 

 

Where is that true? Any facts? This is the work of a small range of extremists. There have been reports of a handul of extremists in various cities telling people not to drink alcohol, to cover up, not show affection etc. They all got arrested for intimidating behaviour! Most of those people are even banned from local mosques because they cause trouble.

The key is to find ways to tackle radicalization in all faiths, and to reduce it -  but often people simply want to react rather than process why people end up like this.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Benedictus

[Benedictus]

Whenever I hear British people complain about "immigrants" I just stand there feeling awkward and stare at my feet as an American... and an immigrant. 

 

Honestly, next time I'll have to ask them what that sentiment is supposed to mean to me. They'll probably get uncomfortable and try to act all fake polite about it, because, you see, they don't really mean ME, when they say that. Because they KNOW ME, and see me as a real person, I guess. Or maybe it's okay because, I speak English and I'm white but they don't want to come out and say it like that.

 

Americans are maybe in a different league, mostly liked. But it's fair to say some Brits don't like Americans either. It's for other reasons though I guess. Many don't want Eastern Europeans, even if they are White and speak English. So it's complicated. It's probably true that many see a bigger problem with those who don't seem to integrate very well culturally. Muslims are often the victims of this perception, mostly as extremists dominate the news and or overseas issues also. Being very religious is also really a British no no in most circles, so this doesn't gel well either. Oddly enough Chinese people, Sikhs and certain other groups (Nepalese, Japanese, Australians) all seem to be held in much higher regard. I could guess at why, but it'd all just being a hunch
 

[Ash Wednesday]

Americans are maybe in a different league, mostly liked. But it's fair to say some Brits don't like Americans either. It's for other reasons though I guess. Many don't want Eastern Europeans, even if they are White and speak English. So it's complicated. It's probably true that many see a bigger problem with those who don't seem to integrate very well culturally. Muslims are often the victims of this perception, mostly as extremists dominate the news and or overseas issues also. Being very religious is also really a British no no in most circles, so this doesn't gel well either. Oddly enough Chinese people, Sikhs and certain other groups (Nepalese, Japanese, Australians) all seem to be held in much higher regard. I could guess at why, but it'd all just being a hunch
 

 

Are you British? (Not a confrontation, that's an actual legit curious question!) 

 

It's definitely complicated. I guess when the issue of immigration and assimilation to a nation's culture comes up, the question becomes where one draws the line when they talk about what's acceptable as far as who can immigrate where and what is expected of said immigrant when they arrive to another country.

 

As far as the original French group and post goes, I understand their fear of losing their culture, and they're obviously fed up with the results of rampant secularism. I'm just not really convinced they're going about this the right way in the context of what Europe has been through before. (And quite frankly, the Lambda thing creeps me the eff out...)

 

My interpretation here is that they seem to want to go backwards and shun globalism, but I think that threshold has already been crossed and we really can't go back to a time before that. That said, I don't think it has to mean losing culture and identity in the process.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Ash Wednesday

[Ash Wednesday]

P.S. I'm also inclined to think Pope St. John Paul II would have something really beautiful and insightful to say about all this if he hasn't already. :)

[Benedictus]

Are you British? (Not a confrontation, that's an actual legit curious question!) 

 

Yes, although growing up I was sent all over the place. I was baptized In the US and I lived with a host family there for about 3 years before I was sent to a boarding school in the north of England for a while.

Yeah, nationalism is vogue in many countries at the minute. I think the rise is connected to the economic situation, but there have been issues bubbling for many years under the surface. There is a lot of european skepticism, and a rise of the UKIP party (as I guess you know).

I can understand some concerns. The problem is these are most often taken on and expanded upon by extreme elements, and they come with some unsavoury views.

I doubt most Brits think much about Saint John Paul ll, more's the pitty.

[Socrates]

. . . 

 

The obligation of evangelization requires that we Catholics are immigrants in strange countries, and that we do not assimilate, do not conform. We change cultures, change laws, and convert states. We are beaver dam lucky that the Irish and German Catholic immigrants to America did not follow your way of thinking.

 

I'm not sure if you're being ironic or serious, regarding your last sentence.

 

Irish and German immigrants to America, overwhelmingly speaking, did in fact assimilate into American culture, respected their new country and its laws, and actually desired to become American.  (The same can also be said of immigrants from Italy, Poland, and other countries.)  This did not mean that they all abandoned their faith, or did not retain elements of their native cultures.

 

They did not try to remake America into Ireland or Germany, have primary allegiance to the old countries, or demand that they be bound to a different legal system than that the American one.  

 

There was simply nothing comparable to calls for Sharia law, or to immigrants from Mexico trashing the American flag.  (And I don't intend to imply that all or most immigrants from such countries do such things, but there is indeed a problem when there are significant numbers of persons coming into a country who do not believe in or respect that country and its laws.)

 

While I obviously don't agree with all the principles of this French group (which appears to be a fringe group of little real consequence), and am certainly no fan of Putin, I think this group does have some legitimate concerns.

 

There's nothing wrong with a country putting reasonable restrictions on immigration (or enforcing existing laws against illegal immigration), nor with people being concerned about preserving their country's own unique culture and heritage.  That in itself does not make one a racist or a fascist.  (Though racist and fascist groups do exploit such legitimate concerns).

[mortify ii]

^ A well worded post with necessary disclaimer

[God the Father]

While I obviously don't agree with all the principles of this French group (which appears to be a fringe group of little real consequence),

 

Irrespective of this particular group's consequence, right-wing French nationalism is becoming a force to be reckoned with politically

 

http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-france-national-front-election-20140527-story.html

[mortify ii]

Isn't Catholicism with its support of hierarchy over so called equality naturally right wing?

[4588686]

So telling Muslims they have to accept Russian laws is Putin supporting cronyism? Rightttt...

 

 

Hm.  Interesting.  So, when Putin backed the Russian imposed strongman, Ramzan Kadyrov, who made it law for women to wear the hijab in part of Russia (Chechnya) he was just standing for traditional Russian values? 

 

How about when he funneled money to Shamil Basayev to perpetuate the war in Chechnya that helped him gain power at the expense of thousands of innocent lives and the utter immiseration of Chechan society?  

[Maggyie]

I note the complete absence of black people in the videos, and just a couple gals. White men be angry y'all.

[mortify ii]

You should ask them to make a politically correct video

[4588686]

Because a ruler can be a thug and still good for the nation

 

 

Ummm.  And Putin has been good for Russia?  

 

So, what was his biggest gift to the Russian nation?  Was it perpetuating a war that has radicalized a notable subset of the Chechen population and installed a man into power who has embezzled massive sums of money from Russian taxpayers?  Or was it how he personally has perpetuated and ramped up a system of graft and corruption that has helped keep Russia's economy so depressed and empowered a network of oligarchs?  

 

Let me help out.  Putin was put into place for one reason.  To protect the Yeltsin political family from being held accountable for their intense corruption.  He and his ilk are parasites on the Russian nation.  

Edited July 27, 2014 by Hasan

[4588686]

A picture of an actual hero for the Russian nation:

 

[dUSt]

Yeah, this is some Phishy stuff right here.

[dUSt]

People have been suspended in the past for using the word hell in that manner. Just a heads up, because I have seen you say it twice today.

 

I doubt this very seriously.

 

This is like, if a multiple violent crime felon violated his last chance parole by getting arrested for jaywalking--and you saying, "He got 10 years in prison for jaywalking".

 

No, he didn't.

[Ice_nine]

Ah, how people react when they lose power and privilege they haven't earned. Fun stuff.

[PhuturePriest]

Not entirely on topic, but it expresses my sentiments on immigration in general in a succinct and to the point manner: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/16/the-daily-show-immigration-reform_n_5591910.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063

[The Hierophant]

America should capitulate to Catholic immigrants because Catholicism is the true religion.  European countries should not capitulate to Muslim immigrants because Islam is not the true religion. There simply is no parity on this point.  Immigration is not something to be decided in the abstract.  You have to consider the concrete consequences of permitting immigration in specific cases.