mortify ii Posted July 23, 2014 Author Posted July 23, 2014 No veiled women... you will conform to the place you immigrated to... whether that be Russian, France, or where ever
mortify ii Posted July 23, 2014 Author Posted July 23, 2014 Apparently to some tearing down such posters is racist and imperialist... sigh...
Nihil Obstat Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 So expecting migrants to respect and conform to the Country that embraced them rather than attacking the institutions is abhorrent in your opinion? Interesting. I thought such an expectation was all but natural and is supported widely even in the United States. Catholics are eternal migrants. It is a condition of our missionary mandate. What do you think Caesar might have said to St. Peter? "In Rome live Romans. Any minority from anywhere, if it wants to live in Rome, to work and eat in Rome, should speak Latin [well we did that one] and respect the Roman laws. If they prefer Christian law, then we advise them to go to those places where that's the state law. Rome does not need minorities. Minorities need Rome, and we will not grant them special privileges, or try to change our laws to fit their desires, no matter how loud they yell "discrimination". The Roman customs and traditions are not compatible with the lack of culture of the primitive ways of [Christians]." so of course, if those Christians do not like Roman law, they should go elsewhere or be thrown to the lions. To think that a minority can just come into a new country and not take on that culture, to try to change the prevailing culture, why that is just crazy! The obligation of evangelization requires that we Catholics are immigrants in strange countries, and that we do not assimilate, do not conform. We change cultures, change laws, and convert states. We are damn lucky that the Irish and German Catholic immigrants to America did not follow your way of thinking.
mortify ii Posted July 23, 2014 Author Posted July 23, 2014 so of course, if those Christians do not like Roman law, they should go elsewhere or be thrown to the lions. To think that a minority can just come into a new country and not take on that culture, to try to change the prevailing culture, why that is just crazy! Does not a Society also have the right to resist such change especially if it be a Christian society? Must Russia start adjusting itself so that ISLAMIC laws and regulations be enforced in it's land? Must a predominantly Catholic society like Poland now succumb the pressures of a small progressive minority that want to make legalized same-sex marriage and abortions? Apparently for a Christian society to defend itself from such elements is considered imperialist and racist to you. The obligation of evangelization requires that we Catholics are immigrants in strange countries, and that we do not assimilate, do not conform. We change cultures, change laws, and convert states. We are beaver dam lucky that the Irish and German Catholic immigrants to America did not follow your way of thinking. Ok, and now we have so-called progressives and Muslims which are trying to further undermine any vestige of our Christian society. I think I recall you saying some negative things about Islam in another thread, does a Society not have a right to defend itself when Muslims try to alter their institutions? Think about it.
mortify ii Posted July 23, 2014 Author Posted July 23, 2014 Catholics with minds corrupted by the atheist ideals of the bloody French revolution... how sad... Restore order and hierarchy
mortify ii Posted July 23, 2014 Author Posted July 23, 2014 Banning these posters being put up is considered racist and imperialist according to Nihil, something so abhorrent that anyone support a ban that is Catholic should have their faith questioned. Shame on you Nihil, perhaps you should go back to anti-modernist Encyclicals.
mortify ii Posted July 23, 2014 Author Posted July 23, 2014 Pope Piux IX was apparently a racist and imperialist when he condemned the following propositions: 77. In the present day it is no longer expedient that the Catholic religion should be held as the only religion of the State, to the exclusion of all other forms of worship. -- Allocution "Nemo vestrum," July 26, 1855. 78. Hence it has been wisely decided by law, in some Catholic countries, that persons coming to reside therein shall enjoy the public exercise of their own peculiar worship. -- Allocution "Acerbissimum," Sept. 27, 1852. 79. Moreover, it is false that the civil liberty of every form of worship, and the full power, given to all, of overtly and publicly manifesting any opinions whatsoever and thoughts, conduce more easily to corrupt the morals and minds of the people, and to propagate the pest of indifferentism. -- Allocution "Nunquam fore," Dec. 15, 1856. http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9syll.htm
Nihil Obstat Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 You are intentionally conflating two completely different issues. We were talking about immigration. Not you are talking about Catholics in the public sphere. Very different questions. You can see, by virtue of the direction this conversation has gone, that it is clearly not about immigration at all. It is about morality. As Catholics we have a duty to form our societies along Catholic virtue. We can and must resist attempts to destroy a Catholic presence in the public sphere. To that end we must indeed resist the imposition of Sharia law, if such a thing is indeed happening. But this is very very different from being against immigration. Anti-immigration is at its core xenophobic. It is not concerned about Catholic morality - that is a smokescreen if it is even invoked. We are against morality being imposed which is at odds with Catholic doctrine, whether that is asserted by immigrants or long established groups. We are in favour of Catholic virtue in the public sphere, whether it is introduced by immigrants, which is frequently the case, or established groups. To be against immigration in principle is inherently racist, and to attempt to link it to Christian values is misdirection at its finest.
mortify ii Posted July 23, 2014 Author Posted July 23, 2014 As Catholics we have a duty to form our societies along Catholic virtue. We can and must resist attempts to destroy a Catholic presence in the public sphere. To that end we must indeed resist the imposition of Sharia law, if such a thing is indeed happening. I'm glad you've come around in agreement with Mr Putin who is protecting the faith and traditions of Russia
mortify ii Posted July 23, 2014 Author Posted July 23, 2014 Nothing about being against immigration here, but immigrants and particularly those seeking to instill Sharia in Russia are expected to accept the Russian laws.
Nihil Obstat Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 I'm glad you've come around in agreement with Mr Putin who is protecting the faith and traditions of Russia Yes, the great faith and traditions of communism, cronyism, violence, and thuggery. The Church of the KGB lives on in the hearts of those who truly believe.
Amppax Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 So expecting migrants to respect and conform to the Country that embraced them rather than attacking the institutions is abhorrent in your opinion? Interesting. I thought such an expectation was all but natural and is supported widely even in the United States. Actually American Nativism is (historically) virulently anti-Catholic. Some of the periods of greatest growth in the country have corresponded to mass immigration, often of large Catholic groups (Irish and Italians for instance). If you look at this history of America, the tradition is being a "melting-pot" and valuing the cultures of immigrants. Ironically, the modern situation is almost worse, considering the history of the southwest and our relations with South America. We have never had a national language, and it has been with good reason. We are a nation of immigrants, that IS our heritage in the United States. Obviously, I can't speak for Nihil and Canada, but that's my perspective as someone here in the states. Also, I'm a political and patriotic agnostic, and have no great love for the US of A. As one of my friends recently posted on Facebook "I'm a Catholic 1st, a member of the human family, a member of my family, and THEN an American (United States Citizen)." I just know my history, and I know that American Nativism has always been associated with Anti-Catholicism.
mortify ii Posted July 23, 2014 Author Posted July 23, 2014 Yes, the great faith and traditions of communism, cronyism, violence, and thuggery. The Church of the KGB lives on in the hearts of those who truly believe. Cronyism, thuggery, violence etc are everywhere and don't reflect the Russian people as a whole, you're comment does range close to racism and stereotyping. Rather the values Putin defends are the Russian people's faith and values, something quite similar to Catholic values.
mortify ii Posted July 23, 2014 Author Posted July 23, 2014 Actually American Nativism is (historically) virulently anti-Catholic. Some of the periods of greatest growth in the country have corresponded to mass immigration, often of large Catholic groups (Irish and Italians for instance). If you look at this history of America, the tradition is being a "melting-pot" and valuing the cultures of immigrants. Ironically, the modern situation is almost worse, considering the history of the southwest and our relations with South America. We have never had a national language, and it has been with good reason. We are a nation of immigrants, that IS our heritage in the United States. Obviously, I can't speak for Nihil and Canada, but that's my perspective as someone here in the states. Also, I'm a political and patriotic agnostic, and have no great love for the US of A. As one of my friends recently posted on Facebook "I'm a Catholic 1st, a member of the human family, a member of my family, and THEN an American (United States Citizen)." I just know my history, and I know that American Nativism has always been associated with Anti-Catholicism. My point was simply that many Americans expect immigrants to adopt our language and assimilate, rather than change out institutions, make English a second language, and ask to be judged by foreign and exotic laws.
Nihil Obstat Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) No no, do not misunderstand me. I am calling Putin a violent nationalistic former-(but-not-really)-KGB thug. Not the Russian people. Edited July 23, 2014 by Nihil Obstat
CrossCuT Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 Just substitute a few words and isnt this just what Republicans believe?
mortify ii Posted July 23, 2014 Author Posted July 23, 2014 No no, do not misunderstand me. I am calling Putin a violent nationalistic former-(but-not-really)-KGB thug. Not the Russian people. Non sequitur, he can be a thug and still be right about defending the Russian people's faith and values.
mortify ii Posted July 23, 2014 Author Posted July 23, 2014 Just substitute a few words and isnt this just what Republicans believe? Virtually every one believes this about there own nations, whether they be Russian, Islamic, Chinese etc. It's just racist and imperialist when Europeans exhibit the same behavior.
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