CrossCuT Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Honest question, so I saw an article that posed the question "Will Catholics turn on the Pope?" Now for someone like me, it was quite intriguing, but my initial reaction is no. But Ive been reading a lot of your guys comments on this and it seems like you feel the summaries coming out of the synod are devoid of rightful catholic teaching and doctrine. What does that mean for you? Is the Pope wrong? Is he doing something wrong? Could this lead to a split if it escalates anymore? I feel like most people would say no, but Im just wondering. Friendly question! Not passing judgment! Im honestly curious what you guys think! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 (edited) Honest question, so I saw an article that posed the question "Will Catholics turn on the Pope?" Now for someone like me, it was quite intriguing, but my initial reaction is no. But Ive been reading a lot of your guys comments on this and it seems like you feel the summaries coming out of the synod are devoid of rightful catholic teaching and doctrine. What does that mean for you? Is the Pope wrong? Is he doing something wrong? Could this lead to a split if it escalates anymore? I feel like most people would say no, but Im just wondering. Friendly question! Not passing judgment! Im honestly curious what you guys think! The Pope hasn't really made it clear which "side" he sides with, he has for the most part remained silent. The Kasperite camp does not appear faithful to what the Church has always taught and believed on the matters the Synod is discussing, and it has attempted to censor the faithful Bishops and Cardinals. Which is why so many Synod Fathers have protested and publicly defended the Faith as it has always been taught. It is the Holy Father's duty to hold to what the Church has always taught and not to change it. Hopefully he will fulfill his duty, and not force the faithful to choose between obedience to the Pontiff and obedience to the Faith. Edited October 17, 2014 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 The Pope hasn't really made it clear which "side" he sides with, he has for the most part remained silent. The Kasperite camp does not appear faithful to what the Church has always taught and believed on the matters the Synod is discussing, and it has attempted to censor the faithful Bishops and Cardinals. Which is why so many Synod Fathers have protested and publicly defended the Faith as it has always been taught. It is the Holy Father's duty to hold to what the Church has always taught and not to change it. Hopefully he will fulfill his duty, and not force the faithful to choose between obedience to the Pontiff and obedience to the Faith. Its a very interesting dilemma...one I have never experienced. Its also very interesting listening to the descriptors for the two camps. Do you think its possible to be a "liberal" Catholic without breaking form the faith? Since there is no real definition of what it means to be a liberal catholic or a "Kasper-Camp" catholic, how do we navigate through all of this? Although I suppose the Kasper-Camp definition is less ambiguous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Ryan Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 The Pope hasn't really made it clear which "side" he sides with, he has for the most part remained silent. The Kasperite camp does not appear faithful to what the Church has always taught and believed on the matters the Synod is discussing, and it has attempted to censor the faithful Bishops and Cardinals. Which is why so many Synod Fathers have protested and publicly defended the Faith as it has always been taught. It is the Holy Father's duty to hold to what the Church has always taught and not to change it. Hopefully he will fulfill his duty, and not force the faithful to choose between obedience to the Pontiff and obedience to the Faith. The tricky thing about orthodox Catholicism is that you do not get to decide what is and is not the faithful teaching of the Church. Only the council of bishops with the Roman Pontiff get to decide what the unbroken teaching of the Church is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 It's not tricky at all. It would be easy to tell that it would be a break with the tradition teaching of the Church if the errors and heresies of Kaperism were adopted. The Pope and the bishops are servants of Tradition they must hand down what was given to them, if they change it or make something new then it is not part of the unbroken teaching of the Church. They cannot make the unbroken teaching of the Church whatever they currently choose it to be, it must be the same as was handed down to them. What the 'Church has always taught' cannot be one thing under one Pontiff and something different/contradictory under another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Its a very interesting dilemma...one I have never experienced. Its also very interesting listening to the descriptors for the two camps. Do you think its possible to be a "liberal" Catholic without breaking form the faith? Since there is no real definition of what it means to be a liberal catholic or a "Kasper-Camp" catholic, how do we navigate through all of this? Although I suppose the Kasper-Camp definition is less ambiguous. I've tried to reply to this many times, but internet keeps given out, and the reply is lost. Sorry I don't have time for a longer reply. To the degree that Kasper seeks to change the Church's teaching on marriage, no, it is not possible to hold those views and not break from the Faith. Most of his proposals would be a good guide of what will lead someone to break from the Faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 My husband flunked out of his first year of college after his girlfriend came out as a lesbian. Correlation is not causation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Skating on thin ice here and open to all criticism and correction. I think that the document out of the Synod causing all the upset is only a contested (by bishops) summary of what has been discussed - and there is conflict over whether the document is accurately reporting what was discussed including translation problems. It is (I think) a type of, sort of, agenda for the Synod in 2015. It is not as if this document is anything final. Apparently what Pope Francis wanted for this recent Synod a very open and honest discussion.........discussion! I tend to think too that what the media is reporting is not of necessity accurate. But it is only media we have on which to base our understanding of what is taking place post this Synod - or even during it. There seems to be much on the Vatican website as commentaries etc. post this Synod- none of which I have read http://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/it/bollettino/pubblico/2014/10/16/0763/03042.html#Relatio%20-%20Circulus%20Anglicus%20%22A%22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veritasluxmea Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 (What does turning on the pope mean? I had visions of a bunch of people storming the Vatican and forcing the pope to resign...) Anyways, I would never do anything against what the Church tells me. Whatever the pope binds as doctrine is true, so I couldn't/wouldn't disagree or leave just because I had a hard time understanding doctrine. I would just study it in private and teach/live it in public. However, at some point in my life the pope may hold a personal belief which I disagree with. Maybe even a personal belief that is directly against Church teachings. Ok, whatever. He wouldn't be able to make it doctrine because it's false. I just wouldn't believe it, argue against them when I needed to, and just keep on teaching, preaching, and living what is true. The End. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Honest question, so I saw an article that posed the question "Will Catholics turn on the Pope?" Now for someone like me, it was quite intriguing, but my initial reaction is no. But Ive been reading a lot of your guys comments on this and it seems like you feel the summaries coming out of the synod are devoid of rightful catholic teaching and doctrine. What does that mean for you? Is the Pope wrong? Is he doing something wrong? Could this lead to a split if it escalates anymore? I feel like most people would say no, but Im just wondering. Friendly question! Not passing judgment! Im honestly curious what you guys think! I've seen a number of Catholics on the more traditional end of the spectrum express some discomfort or concern about a pope's pastoral approach or his personal statements or political opinions, but generally still respect his office as head of the Church. It's happened quite a bit with Francis but I recall many times this happening with JP2 and even Benedict. Without dismissing the gravity of the confusion going on in the Church now, the more I study history, the more I realize how much chaos and uncertainty in the Church is nothing new and the Church and papacy have seen some pretty crazy things in the last couple thousand years. The debate and discussion in the synod has to do with what are disciplinary and pastoral matters -- how to live out the faith and carry on as a Church rather than any actual alteration of the faith itself (in fact, synod or even the pope himself can't undo or change an infallible teaching no matter how much people would like them to). I just don't see anything coming out of the synod that would cause any committed Catholic to turn away. I think Kaspar's proposal regarding communion for remarried Catholics is too problematic and I just don't see that happening. I don't see how they could possibly reconcile that with the traditional teachings of the Church at the same time. The more likely and realistic scenario would be to explore alternative ways of addressing the issue (for example, examining the current state of the marriage and annulment process). The disconnect and confusion between what is the truth and what gets reported or understood is very problematic, though. Not just with the synod but even the pope and Church in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superblue Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 It is rather insane the amount of attention the Synod / Pope are getting over " accepting homosexuals " as if the Church has for all these years at ever parish a big sign hanging on the door, listing who may and may not enter and at the top of that list is Homosexuals. now i could see the big deal of it, if the talk was, is there going to be a withdrawl of labeling homosexuals as " intrensiquely disordered " one can not change natural law so can anyone explain what the facination is , are the self righteous worried that the Pope is going to declare that not only homosexuals are welcome in the church but that homosexuals who are in a union, and have children are also welcomed ... and that in turn the four horsemen will come galloping on horses that breath fire ? What I find even more hypocritical is the die hards who are more on C.A.F than here, that would probably non stop do anything to stop anyone from badly criticizing the Papacy and or any Pope, to then all of a sudden be worried that the current Pope is going to make a mistake and destroy the Church ? Or how about the people who are always non stop yammering about how the Holy Spirit chooses these leaders and in turn what ever decisions a bishop,cardinal or Pope makes, is thusly the correct one, and then when someone doesn't agree with that decision all of a sudden it is well clearly this is just human error and said clergy is not listening to what God / the Holy Spirit wants. it is always, Church leaders Always make the right decision, Until a majority of the laity feel it is the wrong decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superblue Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 (What does turning on the pope mean? I had visions of a bunch of people storming the Vatican and forcing the pope to resign...) Anyways, I would never do anything against what the Church tells me. Whatever the pope binds as doctrine is true, so I couldn't/wouldn't disagree or leave just because I had a hard time understanding doctrine. I would just study it in private and teach/live it in public. However, at some point in my life the pope may hold a personal belief which I disagree with. Maybe even a personal belief that is directly against Church teachings. Ok, whatever. He wouldn't be able to make it doctrine because it's false. I just wouldn't believe it, argue against them when I needed to, and just keep on teaching, preaching, and living what is true. The End. Well isn't that what some Catholics are already doing ? Disagreeing, with what ever they do not feel is right and thusly they just say , well i just wont believe that particular part of what the church teaches " . it already happens with some Catholics in regards to voting with a party that supports abortion, and gay marriage rights..... So exactly at what point are we as lay people of the Church, are actually allowed to say well i disagree with this or that because i honestly believe that it is wrong and against " Church Teaching " as i know it to be ( considering that the person doesn't hold a degree in Cannon law and knows for a fact ) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superblue Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Could you imagine if Kasper was Pope :I Why would you have a problem with the Holy Spirit choosing Card. Kasper to be a future Pope ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superblue Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 For reals? Any solid reason? As much as I dislike the confusion, I'd miss him. In the future I expect more popes to resign instead of dying in the papacy, but if the current Pope did it I wouldn't expect it to happen for, idk, ten, fifteen years. Why not just change the age requirements for candidacy to the Papacy , Tech i think there is some where a statement that any Catholic ( male ) can be chosen to become Pope....... Why only choose from a group of Cardinals that are hitting their late 70s, probably already have a handful of medical problems as it is, etc. Why not open the Papacy to younger clergy including Bishops, and leave the Cardinals in place as the ones to cast the vote as to whom is chosen. The answer is fairly clear, no one wants to have a Pope so young that he is in power for practically an entire life time. anyhow maybe someone can ad a plethra of cons as to why the Pope shouldn't be a younger clergyman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthfinder Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Why would you have a problem with the Holy Spirit choosing Card. Kasper to be a future Pope ? The Holy Ghost does not elect the Pope; He just makes sure that the pope will not proclaim dogmatically anything which is heresy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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