Semper Catholic Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 If loving, caring for and looking after others were at least as important as the liturgy, it would have been the first commandment, not the second. The Ten Commandments weren't written in order of importance. Pretty sure they are all equally important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Mark Ch12 And Jesus answered him: The first commandment of all is, Hear, O Israel: the Lord thy God is one God. [30] And thou shalt love the Lord thy God, with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind, and with thy whole strength. This is the first commandment. [31] And the second is like to it: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is no other commandment greater than these. 1 John Ch4:20 [20] If any man say, I love God, and hateth his brother; he is a liar. For he that loveth not his brother, whom he seeth, how can he love God, whom he seeth not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountrySteve21 Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 The Ten Commandments weren't written in order of importance. Pretty sure they are all equally important. Well it is written in St. Matthew 22: 34-40 But the Pharisees hearing that he had silenced the Sadducees, came together: And one of them, a doctor of the law, asking him, tempting him: Master, which is the greatest commandment in the law? Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment. And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments dependeth the whole law and the prophets. Why would you have a problem with the Holy Spirit choosing Card. Kasper to be a future Pope ? His actions in the Synod alone is one example of concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superblue Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 The Holy Ghost does not elect the Pope; He just makes sure that the pope will not proclaim dogmatically anything which is heresy. lol really ? because others have been under the impression for a long long time that through prayer and the Holy Spirit that the Successor to Peter is Chosen, not merely poltiicals and luck of the draw voting with some money changing place to influence the decision, but set that aside, by your own answer, The Holy Spirit makes sure that the Pope will not proclaim dogmatically anything which is heresy, so by that statement you nor anyone else should have any worry about Card, Kas becoming Pope, or any future Popes from doing just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 lol really ? because others have been under the impression for a long long time that through prayer and the Holy Spirit that the Successor to Peter is Chosen, not merely poltiicals and luck of the draw voting with some money changing place to influence the decision, but set that aside, by your own answer, The Holy Spirit makes sure that the Pope will not proclaim dogmatically anything which is heresy, so by that statement you nor anyone else should have any worry about Card, Kas becoming Pope, or any future Popes from doing just that. Our lessons from history are more than ample to demonstrate that the Church sometimes must, and has, endured popes who are evil and/or heretical. A bad pope is nothing unprecedented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 Our lessons from history are more than ample to demonstrate that the Church sometimes must, and has, endured popes who are evil and/or heretical. A bad pope is nothing unprecedented. Well said. The Doctrine of Divine Providence ensures that all is well even when to human understanding all is not well at all. This is not a call to passivity, rather when things seem to be not well at all it is a call to action ......... and action in Peace of Soul and never an occasion for discouragement nor despair even when one's actions go amiss and all seems futile and amiss no matter what one does. Divine Providence still has us in His Divine Providing and Care and knows what is best in the circumstances seeing the whole picture, while human understanding only sees a limited picture. God sees the wood, we only see the trees. Living in a very secularized society in Australia as I do, the Word of God in Scripture, the Catholic Catechism etc. is very often to most often scoffed at as a sort of resource of the simple minded - and this attests to the extent of secularization taking place. Not that this is a concern, some sort of persecution on some level is almost a criteria of discipleship. "They have persecuted Me and they will persecute you"......no might's or maybe's about it. http://www.catholicity.com/catechism/divine_providence.html Good from Evil (Catholic Catechism #312-#314) It takes time to see how God draws good from a moral evil. After being sold into slavery, Joseph told his brothers, "It was not you who sent me here, but God. You meant evil, but God meant it for good" (Gen 45:8, 50:20). God used Jesus' death (the greatest moral evil) for our redemption. Nevertheless, evil never becomes a good. The saints witness to God drawing good out of evil. "Some rebel against what happens to them but God does nothing without the salvation of man in mind" (St. Catherine of Siena). "Nothing can come but that God wills" (St. Thomas More). "The Lord showed me that all manner of things shall be well" (Julian of Norwich). Because we have only partial knowledge, many aspects of God's providence are hidden from us. Ephesians Ch6 [13] Therefore take unto you the armour of God, that you may be able to resist in the evil day, and to stand in all things perfect. [14] Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of justice, [15] And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace: [16] In all things taking the shield of faith, wherewith you may be able to extinguish all the fiery darts of the most wicked one. [17] And take unto you the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit (which is the word of God). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthfinder Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 lol really ? because others have been under the impression for a long long time that through prayer and the Holy Spirit that the Successor to Peter is Chosen, not merely poltiicals and luck of the draw voting with some money changing place to influence the decision, but set that aside, by your own answer, The Holy Spirit makes sure that the Pope will not proclaim dogmatically anything which is heresy, so by that statement you nor anyone else should have any worry about Card, Kas becoming Pope, or any future Popes from doing just that. The Holy Spirit is present at the Conclave but it is up to the Cardinals to pray and follow Him. At the same time, we should be worried. If Cardinal Kasper were elected pope, all he'd have to do is stand out on the balcony of the Vatican and say whatever heresy he has been saying the last few months. Everyone would say that the Pope changed doctrine/dogma. He would have done untold damage. Yet, he wouldn't have done it in a manner that is considered infallible - ie, ex cathedra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superblue Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Our lessons from history are more than ample to demonstrate that the Church sometimes must, and has, endured popes who are evil and/or heretical. A bad pope is nothing unprecedented. True, so then what is going on , either the Holy Spirit is or is not working with in a Pope, or are we to just believe that all of a sudden free will kicks in to supercede God / The Holy Spirit in regards to the papacy . but when things are going right, then in that aspect said pope is indeed being moved by the Holy Spirit.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superblue Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 The Holy Spirit is present at the Conclave but it is up to the Cardinals to pray and follow Him. At the same time, we should be worried. If Cardinal Kasper were elected pope, all he'd have to do is stand out on the balcony of the Vatican and say whatever heresy he has been saying the last few months. Everyone would say that the Pope changed doctrine/dogma. He would have done untold damage. Yet, he wouldn't have done it in a manner that is considered infallible - ie, ex cathedra. Sounds like just straight out fear to me, fear that some how one person is/ could actually destroy the Catholic Church, and we know that will not happen, who was it Pope Leo ( i cant remember the Roman Numerals ) had a vision in which God an Satan spoke to each other and in the end it goes something like Satan was given some moving room to try and destroy the Church... i dont remember the exact story, then we have scripture after scripture on how strong the Church is, and anyhow i just find it absolutely amazing at how people are like oh yes The Holy Spirit, but then when something is going wrong, everyone goes no no no no wrong choice and evidently The Holy Spirit didn't choose that person to be Pope, flawed humans did it, or, The Pope just decided to ignore the Will of God..... i would just like people to make up their mind, either the Holy Spirit / God is in charge or He isn't, no more wishy wash when things get bad for what ever reason. It is like the timeless cry of , why does God let bad things happen to good people, and then totally forgetting how God is omnipotent, not that He is letting bad things happen out of cruelty , but that everything happens for a reason, wether or not we understand why it happens is always up for debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 True, so then what is going on , either the Holy Spirit is or is not working with in a Pope, or are we to just believe that all of a sudden free will kicks in to supercede God / The Holy Spirit in regards to the papacy . but when things are going right, then in that aspect said pope is indeed being moved by the Holy Spirit.... I do not think this should be so hard to understand. All mankind is called to cooperate with the Holy Ghost. The pope just as much as you or I. Priests and bishops are given special graces to teach and lead, but these graces are only efficacious to the extent that they actually cooperate in due manner. The pope simply has an extra part on top of that, in very limited situations, where he is protected in a more direct way from error. Should a pope choose not to cooperate with the Holy Ghost then he, like any other priest or layperson, will have relatively impaired access to those graces God offers him. Yes, such a pope would be protected from error when he exercises his infallibility, but short of those situations - and they are rare - his free will is just as unimpaired as yours is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthfinder Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 "The gates of Hell will not prevail" is sometimes used as a way to allow for passivity when things are going wrong and there are clear attempts at destruction by the devil. Jesus promised that the Hell would not prevail, but that doesn't mean Hell can't do one heck of a good try at damning as many souls as possible. I have to wonder if the martyrdoms being chewed on by lions or lit like torches kept being so passive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 "The gates of Hell will not prevail" is sometimes used as a way to allow for passivity when things are going wrong and there are clear attempts at destruction by the devil. Jesus promised that the Hell would not prevail, but that doesn't mean Hell can't do one heck of a good try at damning as many souls as possible. I have to wonder if the martyrdoms being chewed on by lions or lit like torches kept being so passive. Then it would be a total misunderstanding of "The gates of Hell will not prevail". It is not at all an invitation to passivity, but rather to courage (fortitude) and Peace of Soul. Many battles to undergo as yet to engage us on all levels in the struggle of good with evil - some battles we might win, some battles we might loose, but in the final analysis Christ wins and has won the war is absolutely beyond question. Our martyrs were absolutely heroic in their courage and fortitude and their absolute trust in The Lord in the face of and endurance of terrible suffering and death. They are an example and a witness to us when we in our own turn face evil on whatever level it might present itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Some of the musings and questions posed are "what if's" - interesting intellectual exercises they may be, even a sort of preparation for a what-if that just might eventuate............but has not as yet eventuated and therefore exists in the imagination and imaginary powers only. Only God knows the future and the rhymes and reasons for whatever and what factors, circumstances etc., He will have in play at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 "The gates of Hell will not prevail" is sometimes used as a way to allow for passivity when things are going wrong and there are clear attempts at destruction by the devil. Jesus promised that the Hell would not prevail, but that doesn't mean Hell can't do one heck of a good try at damning as many souls as possible. I have to wonder if the martyrdoms being chewed on by lions or lit like torches kept being so passive. To build on this, we are certainly guaranteed that the Church will endure until the end of time. But we are not guaranteed that the Church will be successful in the short term. Case in point: the Church in North Korea is gone. There are no bishops, no priests. Possibly no Catholics. For North Koreans, temporarily speaking, the gates of hell have indeed prevailed. In the long term of course the Church will once again emerge, but who knows how long it will take, or how many souls could be lost in the intervening years. I am sure many have been lost due to their lack of access to the sacraments. Bishop Francis Hong Yong-ho, pray for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Catholic Catechism ...........and some possibly little known truths : 670 Since the Ascension God's plan has entered into its fulfillment. We are already at "the last hour".554 "Already the final age of the world is with us, and the renewal of the world is irrevocably under way; it is even now anticipated in a certain real way, for the Church on earth is endowed already with a sanctity that is real but imperfect."555 Christ's kingdom already manifests its presence through the miraculous signs that attend its proclamation by the Church.556 . . .until all things are subjected to him 671 Though already present in his Church, Christ's reign is nevertheless yet to be fulfilled "with power and great glory" by the King's return to earth.557 This reign is still under attack by the evil powers, even though they have been defeated definitively by Christ's Passover.557 Until everything is subject to him, "until there be realized new heavens and a new earth in which justice dwells, the pilgrim Church, in her sacraments and institutions, which belong to this present age, carries the mark of this world which will pass, and she herself takes her place among the creatures which groan and travail yet and await the revelation of the sons of God."559 That is why Christians pray, above all in the Eucharist, to hasten Christ's return by saying to him:560Marana tha! "Our Lord, come!"561 672 Before his Ascension Christ affirmed that the hour had not yet come for the glorious establishment of the messianic kingdom awaited by Israel562 which, according to the prophets, was to bring all men the definitive order of justice, love and peace.563 According to the Lord, the present time is the time of the Spirit and of witness, but also a time still marked by "distress" and the trial of evil which does not spare the Church564 and ushers in the struggles of the last days. It is a time of waiting and watching.565 The Church's ultimate trial 675 Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576 676 The Antichrist's deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the "intrinsically perverse" political form of a secular messianism.578 677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.579 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God's victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.580 God's triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.581 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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