Nihil Obstat Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 This month for me was very powerful reminder in how NFP is inherently open to life. :hehe: We are in a position where pregnancy is not exactly prudent at the moment, but there was a distinct worry that we charted a bit sloppily this cycle. Very tense week that reminded me how I have to trust God's plan no matter how greatly it diverges from my own. (We are not having a baby just yet.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarysLittleFlower Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 "Grave" is an unfortunate, get-it-to-the-presses-fast mistranslation. In that particular sentence, the official Vatican translation says, "serious." Later in Humanae Vitae, it says, "well-grounded" reasons. Later, still, it says, "reasonable motives." That gives you a better idea of the mind of the Church on this matter. This is a very long piece, but please, MarysLittleFlower, please read it. You--and every Catholic--would do well to familiarize yourself with this information: http://www.hprweb.com/2008/03/humanae-vitae-grave-motives-to-use-a-good-translation/ No specific examples of reasons have been given (except perhaps in this instance where Pope Francis mentioned multiple c-sections as a reason, depending on your circumstances); couples are free to discern those reasons for themselves. What constitutes a "well-grounded reason" for one couple to use NFP to avoid pregnancy may not constitute a reason for another couple. We all have different physical, psychological, emotional, spiritual (etc) makeups. Humanae Vitae explains everything relating to NFP beautifully, even prophetically. I REALLY suggest reading it in full; it's not very long. http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html Also, NFP can never be used contraceptively. Ever, ever. It's impossible. The whole reason why it's allowed for Catholics as a means of avoiding pregnancy is precisely BECAUSE it is never contraceptive. Now, can couples use it selfishly? Sure, just like couples could be irresponsible or imprudent in deciding to have another child. But honestly, there are so many built-in sacrifices with NFP that if a couple is inclined toward selfishness, they probably aren't going to go through the hassle of NFP at all; they'll just use artificial birth control. Plus, no couple is going to sign up for 8-14 days (on average; some couples experience MUCH longer stretches) of abstinence unless they have a really good reason for doing so. The "contraceptive mentality" phrase was coined by Pope John Paul II in Familiaris Consortio and Evangelium Vitae to (in the words of Simcha Fisher in her excellent book, "The Sinner's Guide to Natural Family Planning"): "describe a corrosive modern mindset, which not only encompasses a widespread acceptance of the use of literal contraception, but also lays the groundwork for other disastrous offences against the human person, such as abortion and sterilization." Catholic couples are certainly free to take a so-called "providentialist" approach to family planning if they want to: letting "nature take its course," i.e. not preventing or trying for pregnancy in any way, which, unless a couple deals with infertility or subfertility, usually results in a large family. We are all called to responsible parenthood, however, and that means that no matter our circumstances, we should be prayerfully discerning what is best for our particular family in our particular circumstances. That's really all the Pope was trying to get across. He's simply reiterating Church teaching, in the vernacular (ETA a vernacular that obviously upset or ruffled quite a few people, but I doubt it was intentional). OK, contraceptive wasn't the right word to use, I meant doing it to avoid children from not wanting children simply - not because of some serious reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarysLittleFlower Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 NFP itself is neutral... I'm not saying its contraception or contraceptive. I'm saying the view that it can be done for any reason doesn't seem to be based on tradition or the Popes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarysLittleFlower Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Sorry the link was prolife365.com/nfp-not-for-everyone The other link is correct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cherie Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Taylor Marshall, God bless him.   Like I said, couples don't HAVE to use NFP; if they'd like to take a so-called "providentialist" approach to family planning, they are welcome to. But we are all called to practice "responsible parenthood" regardless. Some parents can do that just fine with a large number of children. Some parents' "responsible parenthood" looks like one child, or three, or none at all. The point is, there is no hard and fast rule. I know Taylor Marshall REALLY, really wants there to be a nice, clean list, but there's just NOT. Pope Paul VI offered "physical, economic, psychological and social conditions," not as a way to pin down reasons, but as a way to show that these reasons are varied and far-reaching. Taylor Marshall's article was blasted by numerous other well-known Catholic authors. He was misguided.  Tread carefully, MarysLittleFlower, because many traditional-leaning Catholics tend to take a view--and impose this view--that goes further than what the Church Herself teaches. You're welcome to go 'above and beyond' Church teaching if you feel thus called, but don't tie up those burdens and place them on others' backs and tell them the Church teaches something she does, in fact, not teach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cherie Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 NFP itself is neutral... I'm not saying its contraception or contraceptive. I'm saying the view that it can be done for any reason doesn't seem to be based on tradition or the Popes.  I really don't know the point of saying "any reason." No one has said "any reason." Well-grounded reasons suffice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarysLittleFlower Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) I don't know about the Taylor Marshall article. There is the example that was given of war etc that I mentioned though I can't seem to find the exact quote. But I am not saying there are no other reasons. Here is a Papal document saying more info... It says there may be times of continence and sometimes might be necessary so midwives would have to discourage motherhood if there's a huge risk. But it also says there need to be reasons. We probably all agree it can't just be for any reason but my impression is that the reasons the Church meant need to be serious enough... And we do have examples of Saints who were raised in a poor family with many children etc. I think we need to discern what the economic reasons could be. Not being able to feed a child vs not having a comfortable life. Link Papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12midwives.htm Edited January 23, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cherie Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Believe me, no one is going to sign up for the stretches of abstinence that NFP requires unless they have a good reason to be doing so. Don't worry about other people's reasons. They are free to discern them on their own. It's not always about mouths to feed. Sometimes it's about mental health, or physical health, or even reasons we cannot comprehend for ourselves. We need to have the intelligence and charity to be able to think outside our own little box of personal circumstances. We're all faithful Catholic adults, and we can certainly do what the Church is asking of us without other people warning us that we need to be doing it right. Unfortunately, many people equate the "right way" with "MY way," or "MY opinion." And that's just not the way it is, especially not with reasons to use NFP to avoid pregnancy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaeology cat Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Believe me, no one is going to sign up for the stretches of abstinence that NFP requires unless they have a good reason to be doing so. Don't worry about other people's reasons. They are free to discern them on their own. It's not always about mouths to feed. Sometimes it's about mental health, or physical health, or even reasons we cannot comprehend for ourselves. We need to have the intelligence and charity to be able to think outside our own little box of personal circumstances. We're all faithful Catholic adults, and we can certainly do what the Church is asking of us without other people warning us that we need to be doing it right. Unfortunately, many people equate the "right way" with "MY way," or "MY opinion." And that's just not the way it is, especially not with reasons to use NFP to avoid pregnancy. Amen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarysLittleFlower Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) I don't think I mentioned anyone's personal situation or reasons that I would consider to be unjust except just wanting a comfy life with no kids which I think is clearly not a serious reason in itself. I also think most if not all people who have this reason, use contraception not abstinence. I was talking about Church reaching not about anyone in this thread. I did some more research and here's what I wanted to clarify... 1. Since NFP doesn't work like contraception I was very likely wrong to use the term contraceptive mentality so I take that back 2. Still the Pope said it can be used wrongly and that was basically my point. I am aware NFP is morally neutral in itself and not contraceptive. 3. Regarding just reasons: this was significant to read for me because sometimes this is not talked about and I didn't know before. I read also that these reasons need to be certain, not just "maybe" and a marriage Manual advises to not trust one doctors opinion for example with health reasons but maybe seek other views and a Catholic doctor. Basically to find out more information. That also makes it sound that while the reasons don't need to be just life and death - they do need to be certain and well thought out and serious. Again my example about wars doesn't mean I don't think there can't be other reasons that are more complicated. Certainly various things can be 'just'. I think what I am trying to say is that just means actually just - and this needs to be discerned with a good priest. I don't mean just huge reasons like dying or being in a concentration camp. I'm talking about things like psychological reasons too - just to correct my other statement after doing more research. Maybe I said it unclearly or didn't think it through or was mistaken. Sorry about that. But I still believe the Church teaching is that the reasons need to be sufficient so that a primary duty of marriage is avoided.I'm not commenting on anyone here or making examples of reasons. I'm saying this aspect of NFP doesn't seem to be talked about cause I never heard of it until fairly recently. Edited January 23, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cherie Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Sorry, MarysLittleFlower, I didn't mean to put you on the defensive, I just wanted to correct some misunderstandings. :) One thing I will add is that those reasons to use NFP do not *need* to be discerned with a priest. Simcha Fisher gave an excellent explanation as to why that is the case; I wish I could find it and reproduce it here because she explained it perfectly and eloquently. Obviously, many Catholics DO seek out the counsel of a priest regarding many various things in their lives, and many have spiritual directors with whom they discuss these things, which is well and good and laudable, and even Pope Francis in his recent interview recommends this kind of thing. So it is definitely a great thing to do. But it is not a necessity; a Catholic couple does not need the "stamp of approval" of a priest that their reasons are "acceptable" before they take on using NFP to avoid pregnancy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaeology cat Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 MarysLittleFlower - there's a lot about NFP that isn't talked about, so it's understandable that many are unfamiliar with this. Living the realities of NFP makes me feel rather strongly about it, even moreso than just being an instructor, so I apologise if I came across too strongly or anything. God bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggyie Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 My understanding is that if you go into marriage INTENDING to have 0 children, then the marriage is voidable. This is different from going into it knowing kids aren't likely (husband has azoospermia, or wife is 70 years old etc). But actively WANTING a childless marriage is a no no, even if you achieve it thru NFP. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarysLittleFlower Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 (edited) Its ok :) I'm sorry if I was unclear and/or wrong about anything. I'm trying to understand what the Church teaches. Its just that when I found out that there are certain reasons for NFP and its not just something you can do for any reason at all, my immediate thought was - how come this is so rarely mentioned and also I'd want to not err with these reasons. One of the reasons I made such dramatic examples was to not make a mistake and I just played it safe - or so I thought , haha!! Cherie, just to clarify that too - lol I'm not having a good day with communicating my thoughts well!! I meant its good to check with a priest and I wasn't thinking of the specific question of whether its necessary. Anyways... This is one intense thread, maybe too intense for me, so I think I will venture back into vocation station... :D very difficult topics here at debate table! But good talking to you all! Edited January 24, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 (edited) My understanding is that if you go into marriage INTENDING to have 0 children, then the marriage is voidable. This is different from going into it knowing kids aren't likely (husband has azoospermia, or wife is 70 years old etc). But actively WANTING a childless marriage is a no no, even if you achieve it thru NFP. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I think not voidable, but quite possibly invalid after investigation by a tribunal. There is a difference in meaning there. Edited January 24, 2015 by Nihil Obstat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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