The Strange Notion Of "gay Celibacy"

[veritasluxmea]

Fran,

To be fair, NO started the thread with the article that dismissed sexual orientation as being superfluous to Catholics.   Either you are celibate, or have sex with a spouse that is open to life.  Any other nuance or flavoring to the conversation is unwanted adulteration to the ideal.  

IOW, shut up about who you would prefer to touch, it's no touch unless conception can occur with your spouse within a sacramental marriage.

 

 Simple black and white Church ministry to all humans. 

​"There is no getting away from it; the Christian rule is, 'Either marriage, with complete faithfulness to your partner, or else total abstinence.' Now this is so difficult and so contrary to our instincts, that obviously either Christianity is wrong or our sexual instinct, as it now is, has gone wrong. One or the other. Of course, being a Christian, I think it is the instinct which has gone wrong. But I have other reasons for thinking so." C.S. Lewis in Mere Christianity 

[Anomaly]

​"There is no getting away from it; the Christian rule is, 'Either marriage, with complete faithfulness to your partner, or else total abstinence.' Now this is so difficult and so contrary to our instincts, that obviously either Christianity is wrong or our sexual instinct, as it now is, has gone wrong. One or the other. Of course, being a Christian, I think it is the instinct which has gone wrong. But I have other reasons for thinking so." C.S. Lewis in Mere Christianity 

I don't think any one proposed out of marriage sex anywhere in this thread.  Fran's points in how the Church can help people with SSA achieve this.   The entire point is it's different for someone living 'haven't met a compatible person to be a spouse' and living with 'my sexual attraction condemns me to never having or being a spouse'.  

Some are blissfully satisfied with the "Just Say No" ministry.    Others  think the can be something more.   Like recognizing all crosses don't weigh the same, especially if you've never carried it. I want to say something about compassion vs empathy vs sympathy vs kindness here but suitable nuance eludes me. 

[Ark]

Edited April 30, 2015 by Ark

[Norseman82]

​

Consider that you (that is, our hypothetical person doing everything right [let's just ignore the problems here]) still have the hope that someday, maybe, you will be able to fulfill that desire. How exactly is that harder than knowing you'll never have that sort of intimacy? 

​Right, but again, see above. They still could. Which is very different than can't.

​The point is that I don't use it as an argument to create a protected class to give me permission to live an immoral lifestyle, which is what the examples Aragon cited are used by the secular media to gain sympathy for the "agenda".

At least people with SSA can identify what is causing their inability to find an opposite-gender spouse (however, who says they cannot change?) as opposed to the non-impedimented people who get uncalled for opposition from their fellow Catholics (see Frannie's manipulative "you know better than God" statement).

[Norseman82]

Considering such a state (wanting marriage but not getting it) an injustice is saying that you know better than God what is good for your life.

​Do you have a private 1-800 line to God?  If so, there's a certain Argentinian in Rome that I'm sure would like to have you on his staff.

You do not speak for what God thinks is good in my life.  I, on the other hand, have read what God has publicly stated about how it is not good for man to be alone. God has clearly indicated in Scripture that for those that (for whatever reason) cannot handle lifelong celibacy, heterosexual mariage IS what is good for his/her life.

So, if anyone is off-base here, it certainly isn't me.

[Norseman82]

 

​

 -- you're probably attracted to the toaster."

​With which you can make a turkey sandwich for Lilllabettt...

 

Edited May 1, 2015 by Norseman82

[Credo in Deum]

Fran,

To be fair, NO started the thread with the article that dismissed sexual orientation as being superfluous to Catholics.   Either you are celibate, or have sex with a spouse that is open to life.  Any other nuance or flavoring to the conversation is unwanted adulteration to the ideal.  

IOW, shut up about who you would prefer to touch, it's no touch unless conception can occur with your spouse within a sacramental marriage.

 

 Simple black and white Church ministry to all humans. 

It's sad that you look at it in such a cold way.  The reality is the Church, Christ, calls all of us to a higher love for one another; a Supernatural Charity.  This is a love for the salvation of souls, the image of God found in all human persons!  I know this means little to an atheist, but, to a Catholic it is a form a love the world does not teach or provide.  As Christ said, "no greater love than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."  When I do not act on my attraction I lay down my life.  When I get an attraction and move my thoughts to the things which are above, I lay down my life.  Sure there is a difference between couldn't and can't but it is not so big that I have to become depressed about it.  There are plenty of people who can't have things I can and so where I struggle they do not, but where they struggle I do not.  I don't ask that others minimize my struggle, but I also don't minimize the struggles of others just because they haven't or don't experience the same things as me. It's not really fair for me to use the "you don't know what I go through" defense to minimize someone else's struggle by saying mine are heavier, when I do not know how heavy the other persons struggles are with the things in their life. Sure all crosses aren't the same weight but they all lead to the same thing and that is our sanctification which means they're heavy enough to cause a death to self.  No Catholic should ever compare crosses, since it is uncharitable.

Regardless  in the end I reflect on why was I created?  Was it so I could have everything I desire?  Was I created for myself?  No, as a Catholic I believe I was made to love, honor, and serve God and my neighbor as myself; a child made in the image of God, purchased with a high price the Blood of Jesus Christ. This is my purpose and my greatest peace amidst all sufferings. Sure I still struggle with being too focused on myself and my desires, but through the sacramental life, a great confessor, and prayers and mortifications, I have been blessed to see that my desires, regardless of what or who they are for, are the highest expressions of love only when they are ordered toward God.  It is because of this I am thankful for my Cross and blessed that God has permitted me to have it since it is an opportunity for me to give everything to Him, which is the very reality of Heaven where God posses my entire being!  I want to be in Heaven so God can have all of me, so why shouldn't my life on earth reflect the eternity I'm moving towards and why should I waste my time upset because I can't have something which would move me in the opposite direction?  

 

Dear Jesus, bless our social and cultural climate. Grant that that our society may be purified of everything contrary to chastity, and that we may have the strength to resist the pressures of prevailing distortions of human sexuality. “In the world you have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have conquered the world” (Jn. 16:33). “In all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us” (Rom. 8:37).
Hail Mary...

Dear Jesus, bless our relationships. Grant that they will be holy, healthy, and honorable at all times. “Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere love of the brethren, love one another earnestly from the heart” (1 Pet. 1:22).
Hail Mary...

Dear Jesus, bless our efforts at modesty. Grant that how we dress and carry ourselves may veil what should be veiled, and give us the strength to resist evil fashions and the glamor of sin. “Do not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind” (Rom. 12:2).
Hail Mary...

Dear Jesus, bless our five senses. Grant that the things we see, the music and jokes we hear, our food and drink, and the encounters we have through touch may all be pure and holy. “Seek the things that are above” (Col. 3:1).
Hail Mary...

Dear Jesus, bless our sensuality. Grant that our impulses may not go after base pleasures, but will be freed by wisdom and inflamed for what is good. “In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood” (Heb. 12:4).
Hail Mary...

Dear Jesus, bless our memory. Grant that no dark memories from our past may haunt us, but let your light shine within us to fill us with a healing hope in you. “And every one who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure” (1 Jn. 3:1).                                          Hail Mary....

Dear Jesus, bless our power of estimation. Grant that we may quickly sense dangers to chastity, instinctively flee from them, and that we may never turn away from higher and more difficult goods for the sake of sinful self- indulgence. “For what shall it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul?” (Mk. 8:36)
Hail Mary...

Dear Jesus, bless our affectivity. Grant that we may love chastity and rejoice in it, that all of our emotions may be in harmony with what is right, and that no sadness, discouragement, fear, insecurity, or loneliness may afflict us unto sexual sin. “For the grace of God has appeared, saving all and training us to reject godless ways and worldly passions and to live temperately, justly, and devoutly in this age...” (Titus 2:11-12).
Hail Mary...

Dear Jesus, bless our hearts. Grant that the place where Christ abides in us with the Father and the Spirit may become the place where we live with the Holy Trinity in friendship. “Jesus answered him, ‘If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.’” (Jn. 14:23).

Dear Jesus, bless our will. Grant that it may never be opposed by our sensuality, that it may never be conflicted in the moment, but that it may hold fast to chastity no matter how difficult it may be. “For the Son of God, Jesus Christ... was not Yes and No; but in him it is always Yes. For all the promises of God find their Yes in him” (2 Cor. 1:19-20).
Hail Mary...

Dear Jesus, grant us the grace of self- surrender. Grant that we may hand over to God nothing less than our whole lives. “Father, into your hands I commend my spirit” (Lk. 23:46).
Hail Mary...

PAX

[veritasluxmea]

I don't think any one proposed out of marriage sex anywhere in this thread.  Fran's points in how the Church can help people with SSA achieve this.   The entire point is it's different for someone living 'haven't met a compatible person to be a spouse' and living with 'my sexual attraction condemns me to never having or being a spouse'.  

Some are blissfully satisfied with the "Just Say No" ministry.    Others  think the can be something more.   Like recognizing all crosses don't weigh the same, especially if you've never carried it. I want to say something about compassion vs empathy vs sympathy vs kindness here but suitable nuance eludes me. 

​No, it was more that your original post reminded me of the quote.

Honestly the best place to start... Courage should be more widely promoted, every diocese should have a solid branch. It should be more open that this is a problem and there's an option, like maybe having advertisements in the bulletin or little cards in the confessional. Churches should again, like NO stated, offer sacraments, spiritual direction, incorporate into parish life like they do for everyone else, but with more focus on support for homosexuality. The rest is just making sure people are focused on community and building up other disciples. 

For teens, when youth groups have TOB night, cover homosexuality with something like Jason Evert on it. If a teen thinks they're gay, I'd think the best thing to do is just affirm and reassure them and their experiences and also give them space/time and no pressure to figure it out. 

Actually, the better parishes already do this. Other parishes can barely get their music program and religious education together, so don't expect anything special for SSA. I think an individual, local approach like that is best. What else needs to be done? 

[Anomaly]

It's sad that you look at it in such a cold way.  The reality is the Church, Christ, calls all of us to a higher love for one another; a Supernatural Charity.  This is a love for the salvation of souls, the image of God found in all human persons!  I know this means little to an atheist, but, to a Catholic it is a form a love the world does not teach or provide.  As Christ said, "no greater love than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."  When I do not act on my attraction I lay down my life.  When I get an attraction and move my thoughts to the things which are above, I lay down my life.  Sure there is a difference between couldn't and can't but it is not so big that I have to become depressed about it.  There are plenty of people who can't have things I can and so where I struggle they do not, but where they struggle I do not.  I don't ask that others minimize my struggle, but I also don't minimize the struggles of others just because they haven't or don't experience the same things as me. It's not really fair for me to use the "you don't know what I go through" defense to minimize someone else's struggle by saying mine are heavier, when I do not know how heavy the other persons struggles are with the things in their life. Sure all crosses aren't the same weight but they all lead to the same thing and that is our sanctification which means they're heavy enough to cause a death to self.  No Catholic should ever compare crosses, since it is uncharitable.

PAX

I apologize that I didn't convey pointed sarcasm against tone deaf "instruction" and instead led you to mistakenly believe that was my personal opinion. 

Empathy and kindness is not necessarily excluded from atheistic or theist philosophies.  Atheists are just limited to fostering it within this lifetime.   Neither claim to be perfect or always good at it.  Kinda what puts the thrill in living and a reason for good conversation.  

Peace and contentment to you as well. 

[Amppax]

This is definitely a first, but I was doing some reading inspired by this thread and came across this video by Michael Voris. As most probably know, I'm not a fan of his, but I thought this was very interesting and well said. I'm interested to see what others think, especially Frannie.  

Anyway, here is the video: 

 

Edited May 1, 2015 by Amppax

[Ark]

Does anyone feel there's too much openness on this topic? I think some things should be kept private with a spiritual director. 

Edited May 2, 2015 by Ark

[franciscanheart]

This is definitely a first, but I was doing some reading inspired by this thread and came across this video by Michael Voris. As most probably know, I'm not a fan of his, but I thought this was very interesting and well said. I'm interested to see what others think, especially Frannie.  

Anyway, here is the video: 

 

​I think it's interesting. I was apprehensive for obvious reason, but he makes some good points. I take no issue (from what I remember).

[franciscanheart]

Does anyone feel there's too much openness on this topic? I think some things should be kept private with a spiritual director. 

​If I were sharing the details of some kind of perverted sexual desire publicly, I would imagine that would be too open. If I was talking constantly about lustful thoughts about people, I could see where that would be questionable. As for being open about being gay, no, I don't. Since coming out at phatmass, I have had numerous people write to me to talk, to commiserate, and to find support, comfort, and strength. We lean on each other when the going gets tough, and we wouldn't be able to do that if we didn't know who each of the others were. We only know because we weren't afraid to say something outside of spiritual direction.

I don't discuss the details of my struggles with the general public. That would be ridiculous. But in the same way I see it beneficial for people who have lost children or spouses to seek comfort and support with others, I see the benefit of gay Catholics having people like them to talk to. I imagine the same is true for divorced Catholics and others.

[Ark]

​If I were sharing the details of some kind of perverted sexual desire publicly, I would imagine that would be too open. If I was talking constantly about lustful thoughts about people, I could see where that would be questionable. As for being open about being gay, no, I don't. Since coming out at phatmass, I have had numerous people write to me to talk, to commiserate, and to find support, comfort, and strength. We lean on each other when the going gets tough, and we wouldn't be able to do that if we didn't know who each of the others were. We only know because we weren't afraid to say something outside of spiritual direction.

I don't discuss the details of my struggles with the general public. That would be ridiculous. But in the same way I see it beneficial for people who have lost children or spouses to seek comfort and support with others, I see the benefit of gay Catholics having people like them to talk to. I imagine the same is true for divorced Catholics and others.

​Well I thank you for sharing that. I can see where a benefit may be derived from some openness, but conversely I don't see people habituated to the sin of self-abuse and porn addiction really discussing their disordered sin in the open, and their sin is far more common than homosexuality. I think there is a danger with being too open and causing scandal by making homosexuality seem acceptable -- 'acceptable' meaning "ok" -- I do not mean to suggest that homosexuals should face abuse or any bigotry. 

[Amppax]

​Well I thank you for sharing that. I can see where a benefit may be derived from some openness, but conversely I don't see people habituated to the sin of self-abuse and porn addiction really discussing their disordered sin in the open, and their sin is far more common than homosexuality. I think there is a danger with being too open and causing scandal by making homosexuality seem acceptable -- 'acceptable' meaning "ok" -- I do not mean to suggest that homosexuals should face abuse or any bigotry. 

​You're wrong on that count, there've been quite a few threads on the topic of pornography before. 

However, you're missing an important distinction, between homosexual inclinations and actions. The actions are sinful, the inclination is not. I think when this distinction is made (and it's been made ad nauseum on this forum), scandal shouldn't be an issue.