The Strange Notion Of "gay Celibacy"

[franciscanheart]

Isn't the whole idea of being Catholic that you try to be another Christ instead of being your 'authentic self'? What is being your 'authentic self'? 

Oh good word. What I mean is that we aren't allowed -- at times, by well-meaning straight folk -- the same dignity in regard to the human experience as heterosexuals tend to be.​

 

​I don't deny that there is a fair use to it.  And for what it's worth, my cred is pretty similar to Tushnet's in this regard: I was raised in a secular Jewish(ish) household, discovered in my teen years that I wasn't quite experiencing puberty the way my male peers did. I got involved with the local gay community once I graduated high school, made friends, volunteered for my university's LGBTQ group, etc......and by the end of my undergrad years I was somehow a Catholic (long story).
Those years also kinda made me jaundiced towards identity politics,  how people can hyperventilate over small things, and how the line between legitimate criticism and being hurtful gets blurred. Not fun, these things.

​Totally get the unnecessary fuss. On both sides. I just wish there could be a middle area where straight people realized they'll never know better than a gay person what it feels like to be gay. Am I making sense?

 

​Why the angry reaction at the mere use of the term 'sodomy'? The Church has always used this term. Great saints have preached against it, calling the sin by its name like Jesus did with the sins he encountered. Or are these saints scream ignoramuses? 

​Good word. Because. We aren't talking about the sin of homosexual relations. We're talking about gay people. Just the condition of being homosexual, not the act of homosexual sex acts.

[Not The Philosopher]

 

​Totally get the unnecessary fuss. On both sides. I just wish there could be a middle area where straight people realized they'll never know better than a gay person what it feels like to be gay. Am I making sense?

 

​
Maybe? The trouble I have is that that notion has been used in this thread, I think, to shut down some peeps who deserved a better response - the OP, for instance. This whole thread got started because of an article which questioned the prudence of Catholics using LGBTQ lingo. And, regardless of what your stance is on that, I don't think it deserved to get derailed in the way that it did.

[Nihil Obstat]

Again, I made it very clear that we are not speaking of things homosexuals might tell you about their experience being a gay person (especially in the church) that contradict Church teaching. Do you follow what I'm saying? I feel like all the well-meaning straight people of phatmass are trying to throw flags over something I'm not even addressing. If a gay person comes to you and says, "My pastor is stupid because he told me it is necessary for me to remain celibate, according to the teaching of the Church," I would hope you would respond with compassion. I am not suggesting you accept that this priest is "stupid" because he is urging this man or woman to live according to his or her professed faith. I would, however, hope that you would respond with love and meet that person where they are.​

That aside, there are SO MANY of us who already adhere to the teachings of the Church but who STILL feel as though we cannot be our authentic selves and express ourselves in the church because of ignorance and stubbornness just like this.

I have been very fortunate to find (mostly online) a handful of extremely compassionate, reasonable, and intelligent Catholics who possess a humility which allows them to understand that they will never know what it's like to live in my shoes as a lesbian Catholic.

 

​I'd love to hear your input. Keeping things in gets us nowhere.

​But as you are well aware, we are dealing with grey areas. "Is it good/prudent/acceptable to self-identify as a homosexual?" "Does coming out ultimately benefit or harm one's spiritual life?" "How should a faithful Catholic relate to homosexual people who are not Catholic, or are not faithful?" "Should a gay Catholic look for emotional support from the gay community?" 

If simply asking the questions is one's experience, then like I said, that is a thing that happens which one experienced. But does the experience of asking the question also imply reaching conclusions, whatever those are? "My priest told me I should not self-identify as homosexual. He said it is because I should not identify with an objectively disordered inclination. I think the Church needs to develop a more complete sexual theology which addresses LGBT issues." Is that "an experience"? Some would say it is, and it is an 'experience' which I would challenge.

I do not think that challenging a person's experience, and responding to them compassionately and with charity are mutually exclusive actions.

 

[PhuturePriest]

​

Consider that you (that is, our hypothetical person doing everything right [let's just ignore the problems here]) still have the hope that someday, maybe, you will be able to fulfill that desire. How exactly is that harder than knowing you'll never have that sort of intimacy?  

​Right, but again, see above. They still could. Which is very different than can't. 

​I wasn't arguing in favor of Norseman's post. I was merely clarifying for the sake of fairness.

[franciscanheart]

​But as you are well aware, we are dealing with grey areas. "Is it good/prudent/acceptable to self-identify as a homosexual?" "Does coming out ultimately benefit or harm one's spiritual life?" "How should a faithful Catholic relate to homosexual people who are not Catholic, or are not faithful?" "Should a gay Catholic look for emotional support from the gay community?" 

If simply asking the questions is one's experience, then like I said, that is a thing that happens which one experienced. But does the experience of asking the question also imply reaching conclusions, whatever those are? "My priest told me I should not self-identify as homosexual. He said it is because I should not identify with an objectively disordered inclination. I think the Church needs to develop a more complete sexual theology which addresses LGBT issues." Is that "an experience"? Some would say it is, and it is an 'experience' which I would challenge.

I do not think that challenging a person's experience, and responding to them compassionately and with charity are mutually exclusive actions.

 

​I have mixed feelings about what you're proposing. Is it "acceptable" to identify as a homosexual? This puts me on guard. I don't see how it's prudent to not identify those things. Are you suggesting we ignore them, pretend they don't exist? The good and prudent question is always a case-by-case question. When and how and with whom we share that information is personal and situational for obvious reason.

"Does coming out ultimately benefit or harm one's spiritual life?" I think this is a question best answered by gays with their spiritual directors, no? Where do straight people have a right to comment on that -- especially in such broad terms? This sounds more like a "how does your coming out affect me" kind of question. I know that may be personal, but the points leading up to it still stand.

"How should a faithful Catholic relate to homosexual people who are not Catholic, or are not faithful?" I imagine the same way we relate to anyone else? It's not like they're lepers. Oh wait, wasn't Jesus among the lepers? Hmmm.

"Should a gay Catholic look for emotional support from the gay community?" Again, I think this is something discerned by individuals at this point. I think if the gay Catholic community were stronger, better known, more widely accepted, treated with dignity and respect, allowed a voice... I think it would be more reasonable to warn gay Catholics more against the "gay agenda" of the secular gay community. As it is, however, it's often the first and only place you'll find people who not only get it, but who love and respect you for exactly who you are. It's not about who you do or don't sleep with; it's about the stigma.

 

I will agree with you on one point: Challenging a person's experience and responding to them compassionately and with charity are not mutually exclusive. However, having the emotional intelligence and genuine wisdom to know when to challenge a person's experience is something I do not often witness. Challenging someone's clearly skewed experience is a complicated and delicate task. It has to be handled with great care and compassion. This isn't something you can just decide you understand better and then school people. Meeting people where they are is much more difficult than spouting doctrine or challenging closely-guarded belief systems. But that's what we're called to do, is it not? To meet people where they are, love them like the brethren they are, and be Christ to them? Instruct, sure, but isn't the best instruction incremental and compassionate? You're never going to know better than a gay person what it's like to be gay. Don't assume to. Don't show your ass by waving Church documents and talking around homosexuality like it doesn't exist. It's real. It's challenging. But we're just as human as you are. We're children of God, too. And yes, we all suffer. But it's okay to acknowledge another's suffering without pointing out that they aren't the only one...

[CrossCuT]

​But as you are well aware, we are dealing with grey areas. "Is it good/prudent/acceptable to self-identify as a homosexual?" "Does coming out ultimately benefit or harm one's spiritual life?" "How should a faithful Catholic relate to homosexual people who are not Catholic, or are not faithful?" "Should a gay Catholic look for emotional support from the gay community?" 

​I have the same reaction to this as FH had. I dont think the general straight Catholic audience should be addressing those questions...and also, I think we well know what happens to many homosexual teens who fight against how they feel because of family, religious, or societal pressures. It is not good. There are many stories out there that end tragically because homosexual teens or adults do not get the support they need and feel like they need to remain hidden and suffer in solitude. Of course that is not all cases and you can cite the ones where gays can live happily in the shadows as they dance through meadows and climb trees etc etc but that doesnt mean you can rest your case and go about your day.

We need to create an environment both within the church and the general public where they wont feel pressured or afraid or that they will be judged simply by BEING gay vs acting on their feelings. I dont think the church (small c) has done a very good job harboring a sense of welcome or support for their gay members.

[franciscanheart]

​I have the same reaction to this as FH had. I dont think the general straight Catholic audience should be addressing those questions...and also, I think we well know what happens to many homosexual teens who fight against how they feel because of family, religious, or societal pressures. It is not good. There are many stories out there that end tragically because homosexual teens or adults do not get the support they need and feel like they need to remain hidden and suffer in solitude. Of course that is not all cases and you can cite the ones where gays can live happily in the shadows as they dance through meadows and climb trees etc etc but that doesnt mean you can rest your case and go about your day.

We need to create an environment both within the church and the general public where they wont feel pressured or afraid or that they will be judged simply by BEING gay vs acting on their feelings. I dont think the church (small c) has done a very good job harboring a sense of welcome or support for their gay members.

​I think this might be the first time in the history of ever that I've actually agreed with your entire post.

[CrossCuT]

​I think this might be the first time in the history of ever that I've actually agreed with your entire post.

​First time for everything!!

[Not The Philosopher]

I don't think anyone here wants at-risk teens to suffer in silence. People shouldn't feel like they could be rejected by family/friends for being honest about what they're going through.

iunno if coming out is necessarily the solution for teenagers - adolescence is naturally a very confusing period of life. It can cause more problems if you add a (social) identity crisis onto it. Some kids seem to go through a gay phase and grow out of it; I know a guy like that. Some don't, of course. But I find we live in an age that likes to solve problems by simply trying to slap a label on people, or fit them into some preconceived category instead of dealing with them as a unique individual (because we're all special snowflakes, etc.) And frequently this gets foisted on kids at far too young an age.

With regard to how public about this stuff an adult should be - that seems to be a question of prudence which I don't feel competent answering for other people.

With regard to the word salad fracas that started all this, these are my most recent thoughts: https://pretentiouslatintitle.wordpress.com/2015/03/11/identity-salad/

[veritasluxmea]

iunno if coming out is necessarily the solution for teenagers - adolescence is naturally a very confusing period of life. It can cause more problems if you add a (social) identity crisis onto it. Some kids seem to go through a gay phase and grow out of it; I know a guy like that. Some don't, of course. But I find we live in an age that likes to solve problems by simply trying to slap a label on people, or fit them into some preconceived category instead of dealing with them as a unique individual (because we're all special snowflakes, etc.) And frequently this gets foisted on kids at far too young an age.

I can attest to that, actually. Frankly I think life experiences, including traumas, and free will plays *more* into sexuality for a good number of people than it seems most people want to admit. I know it did in my life at least. 

[franciscanheart]

I don't think anyone here wants at-risk teens to suffer in silence. People shouldn't feel like they could be rejected by family/friends for being honest about what they're going through.

iunno if coming out is necessarily the solution for teenagers - adolescence is naturally a very confusing period of life. It can cause more problems if you add a (social) identity crisis onto it. Some kids seem to go through a gay phase and grow out of it; I know a guy like that. Some don't, of course. But I find we live in an age that likes to solve problems by simply trying to slap a label on people, or fit them into some preconceived category instead of dealing with them as a unique individual (because we're all special snowflakes, etc.) And frequently this gets foisted on kids at far too young an age.

With regard to how public about this stuff an adult should be - that seems to be a question of prudence which I don't feel competent answering for other people.

With regard to the word salad fracas that started all this, these are my most recent thoughts: https://pretentiouslatintitle.wordpress.com/2015/03/11/identity-salad/

I don't know about teenagers. But I'm not a teen. I wasn't ready as a teen. Lots of people I went to school with didn't feel comfortable then either.​

 

I can attest to that, actually. Frankly I think life experiences, including traumas, and free will plays *more* into sexuality for a good number of people than it seems most people want to admit. I know it did in my life at least. 

​Explain?

[franciscanheart]

I don't think anyone here wants at-risk teens to suffer in silence. People shouldn't feel like they could be rejected by family/friends for being honest about what they're going through.

iunno if coming out is necessarily the solution for teenagers - adolescence is naturally a very confusing period of life. It can cause more problems if you add a (social) identity crisis onto it. Some kids seem to go through a gay phase and grow out of it; I know a guy like that. Some don't, of course. But I find we live in an age that likes to solve problems by simply trying to slap a label on people, or fit them into some preconceived category instead of dealing with them as a unique individual (because we're all special snowflakes, etc.) And frequently this gets foisted on kids at far too young an age.

With regard to how public about this stuff an adult should be - that seems to be a question of prudence which I don't feel competent answering for other people.

With regard to the word salad fracas that started all this, these are my most recent thoughts: https://pretentiouslatintitle.wordpress.com/2015/03/11/identity-salad/

​I am nodding emphatically at this part, minus your commentary (with which I disagree):

"And partly I’m so struck by the way Paris’s and Hannon’s analyses sideline any discussion of the mistreatment of gay people. The most painful parts of our shared experience are mostly invisible in their accounts. (If Hannon mentions anti-gay attitudes or actions at all I missed it. Paris does mention stigma, mistreatment at church, and discrimination, though quite briefly. She clearly thinks those things are wrong, which is refreshing…) If we can’t just bluntly say “because I’m gay,” a lot of those painful experiences become much harder to speak about. If you can’t call yourself “gay” it’s harder to describe or explain why you’re confused, scared, unwelcome, or stigmatized; even why you’ve been targeted for harassment, discrimination, violence, or rejection. And “Don’t call yourself gay”–which, frankly, is what 95% if not 100% of the practical recommendations of Paris and Hannon boil down to–helps to separate us from people with whom we might otherwise find solidarity. It encourages Christians who are same-sex attracted to view “gay people” as other, rather than as brothers to whom we have a special connection and responsibility. It encourages us to view our own positive experiences in gay communities, when we’ve had them, as something we need to completely reject rather than seeking ways to baptize what is good in those communities.

But also, as regards the specific subject of this post, we can note that the abuse suffered by gay people reinforces gay identity. If you share terrible experiences with someone, of course you will often feel deepened solidarity with them. If some aspect of your identity comes under intense, painful pressure, of course that aspect of your identity will be more important to you. And if gay people are a stigmatized class, everyone in the society ends up scrutinizing their desires to see if they might be a part of that class; any desire which deviates even slightly from what’s considered “enough” or “the right kind” of attraction to the same sex becomes a source of fear and shame. What we fear in our own psyches, what we’re ashamed of, and especially what we’re ashamed to offer to God, often grows bigger in the rich soil of our anxiety."

[franciscanheart]

That said, I'm on board with this, obviously:

That is at least part of the dynamic affecting this debate. Again, my point isn’t to say that these conflicted feelings represent the last word on the situation; merely that you need to take into account the baggage that people bring if you’re going to get through to them.

[Not The Philosopher]

I don't know about teenagers. But I'm not a teen. I wasn't ready as a teen. Lots of people I went to school with didn't feel comfortable then either.​

​I wasn't referring to you specifically. The topic of teens came up, and I thought it would be helpful to make a distinction.

 

​I am nodding emphatically at this part, minus your commentary (with which I disagree):

​Fair enough.

[veritasluxmea]

I don't know about teenagers. But I'm not a teen. I wasn't ready as a teen. Lots of people I went to school with didn't feel comfortable then either.​

 

​Explain?

​Definitely agree that for adults it's different; not as confusing and fluid. Like NTP I was just making a distinction. Not really much to explain? In high school I thought I was actually, really gay for a bit based on some experiences I had. Then realized I had other experiences of being straight and I could kind of choose which way I wanted to go. I just decided I wasn't going to choose to foster ssa, I understood my experiences for what they were and realized they didn't really define me or my sexuality. It's very difficult to explain... I can't say "hurr durr I made a choice" without sounding like I think every can do that or something :/ tbh I think (some) "straight" people,especially when they're young, experiment and shouldn't be defined by that. Keep in mind I reached this conclusion by myself; I didn't have an knowledge of gay Catholics beyond "some people are gay but they still live in line with Church teaching" from youth group. 

But here's the real issue I have with experiences and labels: People who are actually gay get tossed under the bus or confused with people who are just experimenting, which means they're given bad advice, can be very harmed and wonder why their struggles are so different, and people who are just experimenting can panic and think they're doomed to be gay for life and never have a relationship with the opposite sex because gay people can't change and they *think* they're gay. See how weird it gets?