The Strange Notion Of "gay Celibacy"

[franciscanheart]

[franciscanheart]

That was kind of a bad angle, I realized after posting. Here's a better shot (I think).

[veritasluxmea]

Wow, I really admire her courage/ability to follow the Church like that, especially the St Thomas part... Gave me little chills. Definitely a book I'll be checking out in the future. 

But I still don't see how her foot analogy invalidates my point. I just don't think she's getting it- feet carry: over floors, roads, and ice. Even for fun. Same with hands, they are used as a form of non-verbal communication. it's very much part of their order. In the end... I guess nitpicking doesn't really matter because we're all technically on the same page here, but just saying. 

[CrossCuT]

Im actually interested in that book just based on that page.

[franciscanheart]

Wow, I really admire her courage/ability to follow the Church like that, especially the St Thomas part... Gave me little chills. Definitely a book I'll be checking out in the future. 

But I still don't see how her foot analogy invalidates my point. I just don't think she's getting it- feet carry: over floors, roads, and ice. Even for fun. Same with hands, they are used as a form of non-verbal communication. it's very much part of their order. In the end... I guess nitpicking doesn't really matter because we're all technically on the same page here, but just saying. 

​I think that's the important part: that even if our explanations fall short, the ultimate result is that she sees the Church's authority to teach about sexual morality. I think so much of what she says in this book is worthwhile and helpful -- and not only to gay Catholics.

[franciscanheart]

Im actually interested in that book just based on that page.

​It's a great book. I highly recommend it.

Personally, I relate so much to what she's saying. I know that has a lot to do with how much I enjoyed it. But, as I said above, I really think a lot of different people could benefit from her perspective. She's had a lot longer to sort through her thoughts and feelings than I have; I hope to be able to eloquently and lovingly engage in conversation the way she does.

[CrossCuT]

​It's a great book. I highly recommend it.

Personally, I relate so much to what she's saying. I know that has a lot to do with how much I enjoyed it. But, as I said above, I really think a lot of different people could benefit from her perspective. She's had a lot longer to sort through her thoughts and feelings than I have; I hope to be able to eloquently and lovingly engage in conversation the way she does.

​Yes! I am always interested in different perspectives which is probably why I am on phatmass at all. But her words have definitely given me something to ponder. I might order that book! Thanks for posting it FH!

I am happy whenever any homosexual individual is able to find happiness and contentment with their identity. The only thing I am afraid of from the Catholic, celibate homosexuals is that those experiences will be used by straight Catholics as the end goal or expectation for all homosexuals. "Well this gay person found happiness in the church and a celibate life, why cant you?" etc

Edited April 24, 2015 by CrossCuT

[franciscanheart]

​Yes! I am always interested in different perspectives which is probably why I am on phatmass at all. But her words have definitely given me something to ponder. I might order that book! Thanks for posting it FH!

I am happy whenever any homosexual individual is able to find happiness and contentment with their identity. The only thing I am afraid of from the Catholic, celibate homosexuals is that those experiences will be used by straight Catholics as the end goal or expectation for all homosexuals. "Well this gay person found happiness in the church and a celibate life, why cant you?" etc

​Well, considering that it's their faith, I don't see where that would be ludicrous to hope for. However, I think it's always dangerous to hold up someone who has reached the ideal in their own life and discredit another's experience. I don't think it's helpful to shame people into acceptance of a teaching. So much of the time we point to the end result without considering the thoughts and feelings and actions and experiences that led that person to where they are now. The emphasis is often misplaced.

eta: I think it takes a special grace and wisdom to meet someone exactly where they are.

Edited April 24, 2015 by franciscanheart

[CrossCuT]

​Well, considering that it's their faith, I don't see where that would be ludicrous to hope for. However, I think it's always dangerous to hold up someone who has reached the ideal in their own life and discredit another's experience. I don't think it's helpful to shame people into acceptance of a teaching. So much of the time we point to the end result without considering the thoughts and feelings and actions and experiences that led that person to where they are now. The emphasis is often misplaced.

eta: I think it takes a special grace and wisdom to meet someone exactly where they are.

​Exactly I agree.

Not all homosexual persons will be able to and possibly might not want to have the same end goal that this author does. But I have seen it happen where Catholic heterosexuals in their quest to have everyone achieve the goals they believe are the best, will often use these examples as the expectations for homosexual Catholics (or homosexuals in general). I just think its a bit dangerous and possibly alienating do operate that way. A lot of people will be hurt in the process if we try to push expectations on them. But I do want to read the book!

[franciscanheart]

​Exactly I agree.

Not all homosexual persons will be able to and possibly might not want to have the same end goal that this author does. But I have seen it happen where Catholic heterosexuals in their quest to have everyone achieve the goals they believe are the best, will often use these examples as the expectations for homosexual Catholics (or homosexuals in general). I just think its a bit dangerous and possibly alienating do operate that way. A lot of people will be hurt in the process if we try to push expectations on them. But I do want to read the book!

​I hope you do! I'd love to talk about it when you're done.

Circling back a bit, I again think this is where that passage on the first page I posted was really important. She talks about how they addressed the questions SHE was asking, not pushing their agenda about what they thought her spiritual life needed. They met her where she was on other points and explained things she was already asking about -- original sin / sin, the meaning of objects (given or inherent), justice / mercy, prayer, etc.

[CrossCuT]

Also here is a link to an interview with her if anyone was interested:

http://americamagazine.org/content/all-things/gay-and-catholic-interview-author-eve-tushnet

[franciscanheart]

Also here is a link to an interview with her if anyone was interested:

http://americamagazine.org/content/all-things/gay-and-catholic-interview-author-eve-tushnet

​Thanks for posting that, CrossCut. I live in a big city, home to many Catholics, and I've never met someone like Eve. Is the world different now than when she was coming out? Yep. Is there more dialogue now? Yep. But this is just the beginning. I, like Eve, had never known anyone like me in the Church. I know they exist, I just don't know who they are.

[Aragon]

​Thanks for posting that, CrossCut. I live in a big city, home to many Catholics, and I've never met someone like Eve. Is the world different now than when she was coming out? Yep. Is there more dialogue now? Yep. But this is just the beginning. I, like Eve, had never known anyone like me in the Church. I know they exist, I just don't know who they are.

​Just as ordinary people "coming out" changed the views of broader society on homosexual people so too will more faithful Catholics who are same sex attracted being open and honest about their experience change the negative and hurtful attitudes of many in the Church. It's very easy to speak ill of a political enemy or some nebulous "gay agenda". It's not so easy to speak ill of your gay son, daughter, friend, brother, or fellow parishioner. 

I really hope that the small signs of hope we're seeing now are ushering in a time where young Catholics struggling with their sexuality no longer feel completely isolated and alone, torn between an affirming culture that tells them to deny their religion and a Church they often perceive as cold and condemnatory with nothing to offer them.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Aragon

[Catlick]

A cold and condemnatory Church?

I have yet to hear a sermon even mentioning the sinfulness of sodomy. 

Fact is that for every condemnation of sodomy coming from a priest's mouth, there are ten statements from heterodox priests praising Sodom. 

[Aragon]

A cold and condemnatory Church?

I have yet to hear a sermon even mentioning the sinfulness of sodomy. 

Fact is that for every condemnation of sodomy coming from a priest's mouth, there are ten statements from heterodox priests praising Sodom. 

​Sorry, but unless you've been 16 years old and cried on your knees asking for God to make you "normal" then you really ought to listen to our experiences before dismissing them.

Sorry, but unless you've gone to bed depressed thinking that you're destined to lay alone in bed every night for the rest of your life and there's nothing you can do to change that then you really ought to listen to our experiences before dismissing them.

Sorry, but unless you've sworn at your computer, cried, felt rejected, stigmatised, and alienated from an institution you love because some prominent clergyman has once again described you as "suffering from the disorder of the homosexual condition" then you really ought to listen to our experiences before dismissing them.

Catch my drift?

Edited April 25, 2015 by Aragon