The Strange Notion Of "gay Celibacy"

[CrossCuT]

I never replied to this comment. I got distracted by all the new posts!

I hear you and I understand where you're coming from. I'm afraid I'll do a terribly inadequate job responding but here are my thoughts. I don't believe that firing (or not hiring) someone for being in a homosexual relationship can be necessarily related to firing (or not hiring) someone for things like abuse or inappropriate behavior with colleagues or minors. I think the better comparison is to something like, firing (or not hiring) someone who is in an adulterous relationship and has no qualms about it. I would say the same would be true for someone who is having a sexual relationship with his or her live-in boyfriend or girlfriend.

Actually, the comparisons are quite difficult. Hmmm.

Comparisons aside, I think children can learn all about diversity without being instructed in matters of faith in morals (sometimes strictly through actions and example) by someone who is living in direct opposition to the Church. Make sense? That said, please see below commentary about our fictional friend, Linda.

 I agree, the comparison is rough. I dont believe that a homosexual relationships is anything similar to an adulterous one. The only common thread would be that the church views both as morally wrong while on the other hand, the rest of society does not. An adulterous relationship is one of broken trust vs a monogamous homosexual relationship (while also susceptible to the same problems of heterosexual relationships) is simply two people loving each other.

 

But I think this is a hard point to make when someone views homosexuality through a Catholic teaching lens. Usually those logistical things are lost and the point being made is that it is morally wrong so its ok to compare it to other morally wrong behaviors...which I disagree with vehemently. 

 

 

 

For starters, I would guess Linda would not apply for a position at a school like this one. But for argument's sake, let's say she does want to work at a faithful Catholic school.

You're correct, she's of no physical harm to the children. She's not doing coke in the restroom or ogling them for sexual snacks at recess. However, her example, the Church would argue, puts them in spiritual danger. How can Linda, who is herself in a homosexual relationship, stand in front of her students and teach that it is wrong. There is contradiction there, and especially in young minds, this becomes quite complicated. You are telling me this is spiritual unhealthy, Miss Linda, but you are doing it yourself. You tell me it's wrong and yet you do it. Why? Well, because Linda doesn't adhere to the teachings of the Church. The teachings of the Church whose school employs her to teach the faith. Do you see where this becomes an issue? It's not that Linda is a predator or unfit to teach, just that it becomes an issue of moral clarity for her pupils.

 

The contradiction of a person in a homosexual relationship teaching religion in a Catholic school is something I can understand...but maybe not so much if the individual is teaching a different subject. I feel like if it is not this individuals responsibility to comment on religious aspects of the faith (since they are a math, lit, science, or whatever teacher) then it would be wrongful to terminate them on the basis of their active homosexual lifestyle. 

 

 

 

 

And then back to the questions I had about baking cake for a homosexual wedding or attending said wedding or anything to do with participating in the lives of an active homosexual couple who are either your friends or family....the CCC doesnt really say anything about that. It doesnt say that we are participating in evil or that you are necessarily supporting evil. I think that is where a lot of interpretation and opinion insertion can get messy. It is very clear that Catholics need to love and respect the homosexual community, and I believe that would also involve participating in their lives just like a normal human being would to any of their other friends. 

[franciscanheart]

This never sits well with me. Yes, in a perfect Catholic world, all gay people will accept Jesus Christ as their lord and savior and his love will be enough! But the warm fuzzy feelings dont always happen for everyone. What about those gay Catholics who cant accomplish this? Oh well, too bad? No dessert for you.
 
If they cant make it to that warm place in the arms of Jesus what happens? Are they not trying hard enough? Are the seeds of evil too deeply planted? I dont like that outcome. The church seems to only offer 1 solution which is "Deal with it". Find peace or you just cant play with the rest of us on the playground.
 
Its croutons. But that is probably my non Catholic perspective talking.

Accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior? CrossCut, your Protestant is showing. Would you be so kind as to tuck that back in? :P

You say "accomplish" as if peace, serenity, joy, warmth, whatever is a permanent destination and that once you've checked in, you're always there. This is misguided. We are all still human, Catholic or not, and we all experience the gamut of emotion. I do not mean to suggest that every day will be sunshine and roses, that I do not at times experience deep sorrow, or that I feel I have arrived at some everlasting waterhole of religious bliss that satisfies my human desires at all times. That would be a lie.

I struggled tremendously for the first five or so years. I know others who have struggled much longer. But what's really beautiful is that if you make yourself available to grace, you will receive it. If we place ourselves, wholly and completely, at the foot of the Cross, we will be given what we need.

The times I most struggled were the times I was most hesitant to allow God that very raw part of me. I wanted to fix it. I wanted to find the answers. I wanted, frankly, to be shunned so harshly that I could walk away from it all and feel no remorse for exploring the desires of my flesh.

But God is loving and merciful and so long as there is even a crack in the exterior of my heart, waiting for Him to enter, He will continue to pump in grace and moments of peace.

I have come to an understanding of God's infinite mercy and immeasurable love enough that, just for today, I am content and fulfilled in Him and do not require a human partner to satisfy me. I say just for today, of course, because it's all I have to work with. I have today. I commit to Him my whole life, but in the present moment, I worry only about what is in front of me today. And today I find peace and comfort in loving, detached relationships with other men and women. I explore music, art, theater, nature, exercise, and so forth. I live my life as if God wants nothing ill for me, and I find that it is enough.

As an aside, I think I have struggled more to write this section of this post more than any other. I may need time to sit with all of this to communicate more clearly. I just keep thinking that if every gay person in the Church (with some basis of understanding and acceptance of Natural Law) could experience for even a brief moment the overwhelming love of the Father, they too would know how we persist in celibacy and faith. When you have made that connection in your heart to your Creator in such a profound way, it is impossible to believe that you have been deprived of anything here, but rather have gained so much in Him.

Again, half baked. I'm sorry I can't do better right now to communicate these things on my heart.
 
 

LOL.  When I read Ice's comment I said the same thing to myself.   Then I read your comment and had a great laugh.  Top shelf, FH.

  :hehe: :like:

[ChristianGirlForever]

Accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior? CrossCut, your Protestant is showing. Would you be so kind as to tuck that back in? :P

You say "accomplish" as if peace, serenity, joy, warmth, whatever is a permanent destination and that once you've checked in, you're always there. This is misguided. We are all still human, Catholic or not, and we all experience the gamut of emotion. I do not mean to suggest that every day will be sunshine and roses, that I do not at times experience deep sorrow, or that I feel I have arrived at some everlasting waterhole of religious bliss that satisfies my human desires at all times. That would be a lie.

I struggled tremendously for the first five or so years. I know others who have struggled much longer. But what's really beautiful is that if you make yourself available to grace, you will receive it. If we place ourselves, wholly and completely, at the foot of the Cross, we will be given what we need.

The times I most struggled were the times I was most hesitant to allow God that very raw part of me. I wanted to fix it. I wanted to find the answers. I wanted, frankly, to be shunned so harshly that I could walk away from it all and feel no remorse for exploring the desires of my flesh.

But God is loving and merciful and so long as there is even a crack in the exterior of my heart, waiting for Him to enter, He will continue to pump in grace and moments of peace.

I have come to an understanding of God's infinite mercy and immeasurable love enough that, just for today, I am content and fulfilled in Him and do not require a human partner to satisfy me. I say just for today, of course, because it's all I have to work with. I have today. I commit to Him my whole life, but in the present moment, I worry only about what is in front of me today. And today I find peace and comfort in loving, detached relationships with other men and women. I explore music, art, theater, nature, exercise, and so forth. I live my life as if God wants nothing ill for me, and I find that it is enough.

As an aside, I think I have struggled more to write this section of this post more than any other. I may need time to sit with all of this to communicate more clearly. I just keep thinking that if every gay person in the Church (with some basis of understanding and acceptance of Natural Law) could experience for even a brief moment the overwhelming love of the Father, they too would know how we persist in celibacy and faith. When you have made that connection in your heart to your Creator in such a profound way, it is impossible to believe that you have been deprived of anything here, but rather have gained so much in Him.

Again, half baked. I'm sorry I can't do better right now to communicate these things on my heart.


:hehe: :like:

That wasn't at all half-baked. It was beautiful to read how much you strive to please God. May He continue to bless you in your struggles. Prayers for you!

[CrossCuT]

Theoretically, couldn't two gay people get married (male and female) in the church? I honestly don't really know what it's like to be "gay" in the sense of being absolutely not attracted to the opposite sex (I assume that's what being gay, in the trust sense, is like?), but take, for example, men in prison who deal with their situation ad hoc. I don't think a marriage for convenience, which could be truly loving since they both find themselves in similar situations, would be different from, say, arranged marriages between royalty, where love was not really a primary consideration.

Hmm, very interesting thought. I think its super stupid that anyone would feel compelled to be in a fake relationship to satisfy the demands of a religious oppressor...but whatever floats your boat. This is something I havent heard presented before so I will think on it during my thinking moments throughout the day.

 

I am trying to figure out  how in the image and likeness of God, we can be made and born with defects, ranging from whatever and including homosexuality if we are to believe it is not a choice, and to then label those people as being in some state of sin or at the very least not living life as God and " natural law intended "....

 

Lepers, cripples etc, were always labeled as sinners and unclean, through no fault of their own, none, it was the natural law at the time in their minds to exclude these people from a lot of things....

 

yet I can not deny that 1 male + 1 female = a child, that is exactly how God intended us to procreate, no one can make any evidence contrary....

 

but no one can make any sense why homosexuals are who they are,  and then further more, if there is intelligent life else where in the planet, humanoid or what ever,,, and they do not reproduce in the way we do, more over are some sort of non gender species, wth are we to make out of that. an why would they not be held to the same standards as humans in this regard...

 

I do though disagree when things become a one way street, when one side or the other declares you must accept this but I do not have to accept anything you say because it offends me.

I have grappled with the same thought you have about creating broken people. I mean, God is all powerful! Even if sin twists us, he can untwist us. I am not attempting to start a full blown conversation about this, but I just wanted to say that Ive thought the same thing. 

 

 

But as far as your comments about "we dont know what the heck homosexuality is", that is wrong. From a scientific level, we have a pretty good broad idea; just not the specifics like which gene, or which collection of interacting genes.

 

Accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior? CrossCut, your Protestant is showing. Would you be so kind as to tuck that back in? :P

You say "accomplish" as if peace, serenity, joy, warmth, whatever is a permanent destination and that once you've checked in, you're always there. This is misguided. We are all still human, Catholic or not, and we all experience the gamut of emotion. I do not mean to suggest that every day will be sunshine and roses, that I do not at times experience deep sorrow, or that I feel I have arrived at some everlasting waterhole of religious bliss that satisfies my human desires at all times. That would be a lie.

I struggled tremendously for the first five or so years. I know others who have struggled much longer. But what's really beautiful is that if you make yourself available to grace, you will receive it. If we place ourselves, wholly and completely, at the foot of the Cross, we will be given what we need.

The times I most struggled were the times I was most hesitant to allow God that very raw part of me. I wanted to fix it. I wanted to find the answers. I wanted, frankly, to be shunned so harshly that I could walk away from it all and feel no remorse for exploring the desires of my flesh.

But God is loving and merciful and so long as there is even a crack in the exterior of my heart, waiting for Him to enter, He will continue to pump in grace and moments of peace.

I have come to an understanding of God's infinite mercy and immeasurable love enough that, just for today, I am content and fulfilled in Him and do not require a human partner to satisfy me. I say just for today, of course, because it's all I have to work with. I have today. I commit to Him my whole life, but in the present moment, I worry only about what is in front of me today. And today I find peace and comfort in loving, detached relationships with other men and women. I explore music, art, theater, nature, exercise, and so forth. I live my life as if God wants nothing ill for me, and I find that it is enough.

As an aside, I think I have struggled more to write this section of this post more than any other. I may need time to sit with all of this to communicate more clearly. I just keep thinking that if every gay person in the Church (with some basis of understanding and acceptance of Natural Law) could experience for even a brief moment the overwhelming love of the Father, they too would know how we persist in celibacy and faith. When you have made that connection in your heart to your Creator in such a profound way, it is impossible to believe that you have been deprived of anything here, but rather have gained so much in Him.

Again, half baked. I'm sorry I can't do better right now to communicate these things on my heart.
 
 
  :hehe: :like:

Ha! I really dont identify with protestants at all, but maybe in my fallen religious ways I do unknowingly. I really only used the phrase to be silly.

 

I dont think you need to communicate more clearly, I received the message. Your post was quite beautiful! Even though I am a fallen away Catholic, I still understand all of that. And in a more detached sense, I can understand what youre feeling. Not so much for myself, but that aspect of feeling lost. For me it wasnt about my identity, just about church teaching in regards to the issue. I couldnt allow myself to treat homosexuals or think about homosexuals in the way that certain examples in my life did. I was mad. And I was mad that the church couldnt really answer my questions outside of a "well this is how it is" response. 

 

And I can definitely identify with the idea that I WANTED to be mad so that i could just leave it all behind. But I know I cant. Being Catholic was a huge part of me and posts like this remind me that not everyone recoils from the faith in the same way I did...and I need to accept that. Even though as i sit here listening to your witness in complete befuddlement as to how a young homosexual can accept such a life as the church dictates for her...I realize that I am not to judge how a homosexual chooses to live, only try to support them in their choice and be their ally.

 

Even though I want for you to find a partner and live a kick ass life and and whatever you want and eff the haters....that is not my choice. But I am an ally!

 

You're argument does not take away from the fact that the man is denied service because of his beliefs (which is the point of the video). You can argue that it's not the same, but in the end it is. In both cases customers were denied service because for their beliefs and only one has been fined and that is the Christain bakeries or those who are pro-traditional marriages. Obviously the man had to use a message which would expose the inequality in service from these bakeries. If they're opposed to the message he wants on the cake they would have been opposed to the reason for why he wanted the cake; for his pro-traditional marriage group.

No see the difference is that one person was trying to make a political point by being a jerk, and the other is a legit need to purchase a wedding cake for a wedding event. 

 

Not the same in my eyes. Just christian supremacy feeling threatened.

[ChristianGirlForever]

Again your pointing out insignificant things as for why you believe it's not the same. The reality, however, is while the reasons for why they want the goods and services are not the same the fact remains the level of service in a culture that promotes "equality" should be the same regardless of the reason and that is the point. You can choose to ignore this and close you're eyes with your biased opinion or you can acknowledge the truth presented in the video and that is one type of bakery is allowed to refuse service because they do not want to support certain beliefs and opinions while another type of bakery has been fined for doing the exact same thing. That is hypocrisy. Either you allow business, especially small businesses, the right to refuse service or you make service mandatory regardless of your own personal beliefs and opinions.

*Props*

[HopefulHeart]

Accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior? CrossCut, your Protestant is showing. Would you be so kind as to tuck that back in? :P

You say "accomplish" as if peace, serenity, joy, warmth, whatever is a permanent destination and that once you've checked in, you're always there. This is misguided. We are all still human, Catholic or not, and we all experience the gamut of emotion. I do not mean to suggest that every day will be sunshine and roses, that I do not at times experience deep sorrow, or that I feel I have arrived at some everlasting waterhole of religious bliss that satisfies my human desires at all times. That would be a lie.

I struggled tremendously for the first five or so years. I know others who have struggled much longer. But what's really beautiful is that if you make yourself available to grace, you will receive it. If we place ourselves, wholly and completely, at the foot of the Cross, we will be given what we need.

The times I most struggled were the times I was most hesitant to allow God that very raw part of me. I wanted to fix it. I wanted to find the answers. I wanted, frankly, to be shunned so harshly that I could walk away from it all and feel no remorse for exploring the desires of my flesh.

But God is loving and merciful and so long as there is even a crack in the exterior of my heart, waiting for Him to enter, He will continue to pump in grace and moments of peace.

I have come to an understanding of God's infinite mercy and immeasurable love enough that, just for today, I am content and fulfilled in Him and do not require a human partner to satisfy me. I say just for today, of course, because it's all I have to work with. I have today. I commit to Him my whole life, but in the present moment, I worry only about what is in front of me today. And today I find peace and comfort in loving, detached relationships with other men and women. I explore music, art, theater, nature, exercise, and so forth. I live my life as if God wants nothing ill for me, and I find that it is enough.

As an aside, I think I have struggled more to write this section of this post more than any other. I may need time to sit with all of this to communicate more clearly. I just keep thinking that if every gay person in the Church (with some basis of understanding and acceptance of Natural Law) could experience for even a brief moment the overwhelming love of the Father, they too would know how we persist in celibacy and faith. When you have made that connection in your heart to your Creator in such a profound way, it is impossible to believe that you have been deprived of anything here, but rather have gained so much in Him.

Again, half baked. I'm sorry I can't do better right now to communicate these things on my heart.
 
 

 

FranciscanHeart, I think that this is a beautiful reflection! I have found this post and other recent posts of yours in this thread to be clear, charitable, and thought-provoking. Thank you for sharing!  :)

[Winchester]

Your gay/antigay cake debate goes here: http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/136542-debate-over-the-right-to-compel-people-to-make-gayantigay-cakes/

[CrossCuT]

Thank you for that. It needed to be purged.

[franciscanheart]

That wasn't at all half-baked. It was beautiful to read how much you strive to please God. May He continue to bless you in your struggles. Prayers for you!

Thank you. Back at ya! :heart:

 

FranciscanHeart, I think that this is a beautiful reflection! I have found this post and other recent posts of yours in this thread to be clear, charitable, and thought-provoking. Thank you for sharing!  :)

:heart:

Your gay/antigay cake debate goes here: http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/136542-debate-over-the-right-to-compel-people-to-make-gayantigay-cakes/

And I was just about to reply to that post...
 




(eta one more post i forgot to include.) Edited January 30, 2015 by franciscanheart

[Archaeology cat]

Franny, you're awesome

[Winchester]

:heart:



And I was just about to reply to that post...
 

You can. I even linked to it. 

[franciscanheart]

Franny, you're amesome

You're pretty great, too. :love:

[franciscanheart]

You can. I even linked to it.

Yes, I see that. :) Thanks, friend.

[franciscanheart]

I have more I want to respond to, just haven't had time. Sincerest appreciation for all of you who engaged me and this thread with so much respect. It really isn't the norm to feel comfortable talking about these things. :heart:

[Oremus Pro Invicem]

Accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior? CrossCut, your Protestant is showing. Would you be so kind as to tuck that back in? :P

You say "accomplish" as if peace, serenity, joy, warmth, whatever is a permanent destination and that once you've checked in, you're always there. This is misguided. We are all still human, Catholic or not, and we all experience the gamut of emotion. I do not mean to suggest that every day will be sunshine and roses, that I do not at times experience deep sorrow, or that I feel I have arrived at some everlasting waterhole of religious bliss that satisfies my human desires at all times. That would be a lie.

I struggled tremendously for the first five or so years. I know others who have struggled much longer. But what's really beautiful is that if you make yourself available to grace, you will receive it. If we place ourselves, wholly and completely, at the foot of the Cross, we will be given what we need.

The times I most struggled were the times I was most hesitant to allow God that very raw part of me. I wanted to fix it. I wanted to find the answers. I wanted, frankly, to be shunned so harshly that I could walk away from it all and feel no remorse for exploring the desires of my flesh.

But God is loving and merciful and so long as there is even a crack in the exterior of my heart, waiting for Him to enter, He will continue to pump in grace and moments of peace.

I have come to an understanding of God's infinite mercy and immeasurable love enough that, just for today, I am content and fulfilled in Him and do not require a human partner to satisfy me. I say just for today, of course, because it's all I have to work with. I have today. I commit to Him my whole life, but in the present moment, I worry only about what is in front of me today. And today I find peace and comfort in loving, detached relationships with other men and women. I explore music, art, theater, nature, exercise, and so forth. I live my life as if God wants nothing ill for me, and I find that it is enough.

As an aside, I think I have struggled more to write this section of this post more than any other. I may need time to sit with all of this to communicate more clearly. I just keep thinking that if every gay person in the Church (with some basis of understanding and acceptance of Natural Law) could experience for even a brief moment the overwhelming love of the Father, they too would know how we persist in celibacy and faith. When you have made that connection in your heart to your Creator in such a profound way, it is impossible to believe that you have been deprived of anything here, but rather have gained so much in Him.

Again, half baked. I'm sorry I can't do better right now to communicate these things on my heart.


:hehe: :like:

Very moving, very powerful, and full of hope. Thank for sharing this and please pray for me FH.