Nihil Obstat Posted March 23, 2015 Author Share Posted March 23, 2015 @Hasan, I see that you have read Libertas. What are your thoughts on it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatitude Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 From Libertas by Pope Leo XIII: Religion, of its essence, is wonderfully helpful to the State. For, since it derives the prime origin of all power directly from God Himself, with grave authority it charges rulers to be mindful of their duty, to govern without injustice or severity, to rule their people kindly and with almost paternal charity; it admonishes subjects to be obedient to lawful authority, as to the ministers of God; and it binds them to their rulers, not merely by obedience, but by reverence and affection, forbidding all seditious and venturesome enterprises calculated to disturb public order and tranquillity, and cause greater restrictions to be put upon the liberty of the people. We need not mention how greatly religion conduces to pure morals, and pure morals to liberty. Reason shows, and history confirms the fact, that the higher the morality of States; the greater are the liberty and wealth and power which they enjoy. Has there ever been such a thing as a moral state? I don't think history can show us one, and I also don't think that wielding great power can be read as a sign of having great morality - usually the opposite, in fact, as the more powerful the state the greater the opportunity to commit abuses. Which states did Pope Leo actually have in mind when he wrote the final quoted sentence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 23, 2015 Author Share Posted March 23, 2015 Has there ever been such a thing as a moral state? I don't think history can show us one, and I also don't think that wielding great power can be read as a sign of having great morality - usually the opposite, in fact, as the more powerful the state the greater the opportunity to commit abuses. Which states did Pope Leo actually have in mind when he wrote the final quoted sentence? I doubt there has ever been a state that could be considered perfectly moral, including the historic Kingdom of Israel. But there have certainly been states which were absolutely or near-absolutely immoral, and a great many states which needed a good dose of extra morality. I do not believe that historical evidence of a perfectly moral state is relevant to the obligations of Catholics in the public forum, to be honest. People will always sin despite how hard the Church teaches and instructs, but that does not in itself discredit Her moral teaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 23, 2015 Author Share Posted March 23, 2015 To be honest, my specialty is not history, so I am not even sure where I would start if I wanted to find some states that were more or less along the lines of a Catholic confessional state, and were relatively benevolent relative to the rest of the world. Perhaps France at certain points in her history. Probably the Holy Roman Empire at some point. Spain, pre-schism England, some parts of the Byzantine Empire. I simply do not know, and it is not a subject I could become well versed in with any reasonable time frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 23, 2015 Author Share Posted March 23, 2015 Maybe @truthfinder knows of some historical examples of relatively benevolent Catholic states? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 23, 2015 Author Share Posted March 23, 2015 Futurepriest tells me he clicked on yes, but meant to click no. Perhaps the forum software still allows moderators or administrators to change voting numbers? @dUSt, @Credo in Deum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Then you have no moral leaders period, including yourself. What do you mean by moral leader? Someone to tell me what is moral or not? Religious claims are not the sole or epitome of morality. There are too many competing claims by religions with too wide of a variety of behaviors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 23, 2015 Author Share Posted March 23, 2015 What do you mean by moral leader? Someone to tell me what is moral or not? Religious claims are not the sole or epitome of morality. There are too many competing claims by religions with too wide of a variety of behaviors. What do *you* mean by moral leader? You said it first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veritasluxmea Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I think we should just not have any religion. ok john lennon The ironic thing is, John Lennon was religious. He was into Buddhism and New-Age spirituality later on in life. Basically, he just didn't like Christianity- hence the following quote from him: "Christianity will go. It will vanish and shrink. I needn't argue with that; I'm right and I will be proved right. We're [the Beatles] more popular than Jesus now; I don't know which will go first - rock and roll or Christianity." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 What do *you* mean by moral leader? You said it first. Oh. Apparently you were just being nonsensical in your original response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Credo in Deum Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Futurepriest tells me he clicked on yes, but meant to click no. Perhaps the forum software still allows moderators or administrators to change voting numbers? @dUSt, @Credo in Deum? Sorry, Nihil. I haven't been able to find a way to change the voting numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 23, 2015 Author Share Posted March 23, 2015 Oh. Apparently you were just being nonsensical in your original response. I am interested in discussion here. Not so much in cheap platitudes. Frankly I am more interested in opinions from Catholics. Your own positions are often interesting though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I am interested in discussion here. Not so much in cheap platitudes. Frankly I am more interested in opinions from Catholics. Your own positions are often interesting though. My original post was an observational comment in reference to your comment on the fact the Church has a smaller role in society. The Church once held what you desired. The profile, authority, and power in society. Do you really only blame the lay populace for its current marginalization? and judging by your poll choices, I imagined non-Catholics were welcomed to opine. "Sorry" if it's unpleasant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 23, 2015 Author Share Posted March 23, 2015 My original post was an observational comment in reference to your comment on the fact the Church has a smaller role in society. The Church once held what you desired. The profile, authority, and power in society. Do you really only blame the lay populace for its current marginalization? and judging by your poll choices, I imagined non-Catholics were welcomed to opine. "Sorry" if it's unpleasant. Welcome, sure. Am I interested? Occasionally. Your opinions yes. Crosscut's, today, not really. Anyway, I do not think I said the laypeople at large are to blame. I some sense certainly we are, but exclusively, I do not think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthfinder Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Wow, it looks like I've got hours worth of posts to catch up on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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