Do You Support The Charismatic Renewal In The Chur

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Jun 12 2004, 03:20 PM'] The Holy Spirit isn't going to be CONFINED. [/quote]
Why would the Holy Spirit go against Jesus? One of the things that I don't understand about the Charismatic Movement is that I know sometimes it can be distracting during Adoration or a Procession (I've seen this happen before). A lot of people attribute this to the Holy Spirit, but why would He take away attention from Jesus? It seems counterintuitive and since they have the same will, this seems really awkward. This goes with what Bruce S said, why would people leave Jesus behind for the Blessed Sacrament. This is one of the things that I do question about the Charismatic Movement. It seems to take away from Jesus' True Presence in the Blessed Sacrament.

[Mickey's_Girl]

[quote name='yiannii' date='Jun 13 2004, 09:59 AM'] In my experience and others, talking in tongues is almost forced onto one. [/quote]
I'm sort of sitting on the sidelines, here (well, I keep posting, but you know what I mean, right? My not being Catholic, and all), enjoying this thread immensely. p0lar_bear, I appreciate all your posts from the Holy Father. He is so cool. :wub:

Yiannii--I hear what you're saying about feeling like tongues being "forced upon" one, because I've had that experience (not in my current church, but an "independent Pentecostal" one that I used to go to). In fact, there came a point where I was deeply skeptical of speaking in tongues. I saw that it was discussed in the Bible, and I believed that it was possible, but I just couldn't deal with the craziness in some people who practiced it.

After several years (and a lot of thought and experience later) God softened my heart to it. I believed it to be biblical, and I realized that other people were not the issue (for me, at that time); I needed to worship the Holy Spirit and ask him to guide me. And I needed to listen to him.

As I posted earlier, I have both spoken in tongues (in the congregation) and interpreted. It has only happened once. It was definitely God. I have also experienced the "prayer language" phenomenon, and I'm not quite sure about that, because I find theological distinctions between the two not terribly convincing. Yet when I use it, it is spontaneous, and pretty much only when I am praying [b]hard [/b]for someone and I've run out of words. And it doesn't happen often, either. Still trying to figure that one out (if it's God, where's the theology, if it's not, what is going on?). It could be cultural baggage that I have, too, being a lifelong Pentecostal. Not sure.

At any rate, "the good" of speaking in tongues (as in, "what's the good of it?") for me has been a sensitivity to the Holy Spirit's voice. Being in a charismatic church, I have been sensitized to listen to him. I have come to know better when a thought or impression really is from God, or is just me.

Case in point: the reason I'm at Phatmass, the reason I read Catholic apologetics, the reason I keep thinking about the Church, is because I feel the Holy Spirit's direction. Things ring true. I think I would have much more difficulty with the Catholic faith if I didn't trust the Holy Spirit's guidance.

MG

[P3chrmd]

It helps because some people prefer modern music and praying out loud and being very active! While some prefer the traditional music and being silent! As long as they are following the CATHOLIC CHURCH and the teachings, and a correct mass, then they are fine! Whatever gets people more active with God and closer to Jesus! Its like the eastern catholics...they have there own thing...but they are in complete aggrement with Rome...same should be said for Charismatic Catholics...but some catholics get scared of a guitar and drums

[Archaeology cat]

It seems like people are equating "charismatic" with speaking in tongues. I guess they usually go together, but I consider myself to go to a charismatic church, and never is the service interrupted by people speaking in tongues. I know people around me are praying in tongues, but it would be disruptive to the service for people to just randomly speak in tongues, in my opinion. Of course, I'm fairly new to the charismatic thing. . .

[Archbishop 10-K]

[quote]Or they left. My local church, over 1,000 families, are MOSTLY Charismatics who left the Catholic Church.
[/quote]

[quote]Eucharistic Adoration isn't what BUILT Christianity, and won't rebuild it either.
[/quote]


Unfortunately, Bruce, the reason I actually started caring about Jesus in the first place was the Catholic Church's traditional style, including Eucharistic Adoration and whatnot. The happy-go-lucky flavor of Christianity, IMO, felt somewhat diluted.

[Archaeology cat]

I think the point is simply that you have a choice in Mass, whether it be traditional or charismatic, and that God accepts both types of worship as long as we are truly focusing on Him and not detracting from Him in any way. But I think everyone here has made that fairly clear, as well.

[Archbishop 10-K]

[quote name='shinobininjasp' date='Jun 13 2004, 08:02 PM'] I think the point is simply that you have a choice in Mass, whether it be traditional or charismatic, and that God accepts both types of worship as long as we are truly focusing on Him and not detracting from Him in any way. But I think everyone here has made that fairly clear, as well. [/quote]
Amen to that.

[yiannii]

[quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Jun 14 2004, 02:16 AM'] In most cases, but not necessarily. I think it was St. John Bosco who had a number of boys at his school who would levitate...I don't think one would have considered them exceptionally advanced...

But, the point was that your statement wasn't logical (i.e. I don't understand it's benefits therefore it must not be true). [/quote]
What is your exact source for your statement for St. Don Bosco and his levitating students?

[yiannii]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Jun 14 2004, 06:00 AM'] Why would the Holy Spirit go against Jesus? One of the things that I don't understand about the Charismatic Movement is that I know sometimes it can be distracting during Adoration or a Procession (I've seen this happen before). A lot of people attribute this to the Holy Spirit, but why would He take away attention from Jesus? It seems counterintuitive and since they have the same will, this seems really awkward. This goes with what Bruce S said, why would people leave Jesus behind for the Blessed Sacrament. This is one of the things that I do question about the Charismatic Movement. It seems to take away from Jesus' True Presence in the Blessed Sacrament. [/quote]
Exactly!!

[daugher-of-Mary]

[quote]Eucharistic Adoration isn't what BUILT Christianity, and won't rebuild it either.[/quote]

The Eucharist is the source and summit of Christian life. The Church finds its strength at the Heart of Jesus, Truly Present on the altar. While Adoration isn't a necessity, it certainly serves to strengthen and renew the Church.

[yiannii]

[quote name='Mickey's_Girl' date='Jun 14 2004, 06:25 AM'] I'm sort of sitting on the sidelines, here (well, I keep posting, but you know what I mean, right? My not being Catholic, and all), enjoying this thread immensely. p0lar_bear, I appreciate all your posts from the Holy Father. He is so cool. :wub:

Yiannii--I hear what you're saying about feeling like tongues being "forced upon" one, because I've had that experience (not in my current church, but an "independent Pentecostal" one that I used to go to). In fact, there came a point where I was deeply skeptical of speaking in tongues. I saw that it was discussed in the Bible, and I believed that it was possible, but I just couldn't deal with the craziness in some people who practiced it.

After several years (and a lot of thought and experience later) God softened my heart to it. I believed it to be biblical, and I realized that other people were not the issue (for me, at that time); I needed to worship the Holy Spirit and ask him to guide me. And I needed to listen to him.

As I posted earlier, I have both spoken in tongues (in the congregation) and interpreted. It has only happened once. It was definitely God. I have also experienced the "prayer language" phenomenon, and I'm not quite sure about that, because I find theological distinctions between the two not terribly convincing. Yet when I use it, it is spontaneous, and pretty much only when I am praying [b]hard [/b]for someone and I've run out of words. And it doesn't happen often, either. Still trying to figure that one out (if it's God, where's the theology, if it's not, what is going on?). It could be cultural baggage that I have, too, being a lifelong Pentecostal. Not sure.

At any rate, "the good" of speaking in tongues (as in, "what's the good of it?") for me has been a sensitivity to the Holy Spirit's voice. Being in a charismatic church, I have been sensitized to listen to him. I have come to know better when a thought or impression really is from God, or is just me.

Case in point: the reason I'm at Phatmass, the reason I read Catholic apologetics, the reason I keep thinking about the Church, is because I feel the Holy Spirit's direction. Things ring true. I think I would have much more difficulty with the Catholic faith if I didn't trust the Holy Spirit's guidance.

MG [/quote]
Thank you for your honest reflection on this topic. But I would like to stress that just because one isn't interested in the charasimatic renewal doesn't mean they aren't open to the Holy Spirit. I am personally not in favour of the Pentecostal movement, for a number of reasons, but I still am open to the gifts of the Spirit which are defined as: wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and fear of the Lord. These gifts were given to me at my Baptisim and were strengthened at my Conformation, Catholics have always believed this.

I have many reservations about the Charismatic renewal, those reservations have already been expressed in previous posts.

I read p0lar_bear's quotes from the Holy Father but am still unconvinced that he was specifically talking about talking in tongues. Yes he was talking about the gifts of the Spirit but that doesn't necessarily mean talking in tongues.

[yiannii]

[quote name='P3chrmd' date='Jun 14 2004, 06:51 AM'] It helps because some people prefer modern music and praying out loud and being very active! While some prefer the traditional music and being silent! As long as they are following the CATHOLIC CHURCH and the teachings, and a correct mass, then they are fine! Whatever gets people more active with God and closer to Jesus! Its like the eastern catholics...they have there own thing...but they are in complete aggrement with Rome...same should be said for Charismatic Catholics...but some catholics get scared of a guitar and drums [/quote]
I guess a lot of Catholics are scareed of a guitar and drums because they are afraid that it will lead to irreverent Masses and a loss in reverence and appreciation of the Blessed Sacrament, as they have seen countless times before.

[yiannii]

Nothing should take attention away from the Sacrifice and His Real Presence.

[Mickey's_Girl]

Eucharistic Adoration: :wub:

MG

[qfnol31]

[quote name='yiannii' date='Jun 13 2004, 09:07 PM'] Nothing should take attention away from the Sacrifice and His Real Presence. [/quote]
I agree. Since Their wills are one, then it would be wrong for us to say They contradict each other.

[Kilroy the Ninja]

Not that anyone really cares what I think, I find the charismatic movement irreverent and partially responsible for some of the reverence problems many parishes are experiencing today. However, I'm not going to debate this with anyone as I don't have the time nor the inclination to.

Just felt like saying my peace.

Pax Christi ya'll.

[qfnol31]

I care what you think.

[voiciblanche]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Jun 12 2004, 03:36 PM'] That may be why you don't hear much about the Charismatic's anymore, if you stifle people, and try to control the Holy Spirit, He has this strange way of fixing things Himself, it would seem.
[/quote]
Bruce, I don't think I understand where you're "going" with that statement. Stifling [i]people[/i] and trying to control the [i]Holy Spirit[/i] are two different things. The Catholic Church does not think that she can control the Holy Spirit, and she does not try to control the Holy Spirit. However, if she believes that a movement may be dangerous, I, personally, would not question her judgment in keeping the movement as small as possibly until she can look into it further. That being said, she certainly does not mean to drive anyone away because she is cautious about a movement.

[qfnol31]

One thing I haven't been able to find is a quote where the Holy Father actually condones the Charismatic Movement. I know that he is for a renewal of the Holy Spirit in our Church, but does anyone realize how often we actually call upon Him in a traditional Mass? First of all we begin and end in the name of the Father, Son, and [i]Holy Spirit[/i]. However later, during the most important part of the Mass we call upon Him once again. The priest says these or similar words (depending on which Eucharistic Prayer he uses): "Lord send your Spirit upon these gifts to make them holy, so that they may become for us the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ."

So many people claim that the Holy Spirit isn't present, or they can't feel Him in traditional Masses (my mom has mentioned this before), but He is part of the most precious gift we have!!!!! It's through the Holy Spirit that Jesus becomes present in His Most Precious Body, Blood, Soul, Divinity!!! How is it that the Holy Spirit isn't present? He helps give us the most awesome gift that we can receive!!!



[color=purple]edited to say:[/color] I don't think that the Holy Spirit has ever left the Church in anyway, but rather our awareness of Him. Today we look so much to our senses to find God in our life, but that just can't work. Think of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. All our senses cry out against Him being there...but if we turn our hearts towards Him, we see Him. Is the same not true for the Holy Spirit?

When people say that they can't feel the Holy Spirit I now question if it's because they're looking with their senses and not with their hearts?

Edited June 14, 2004 by qfnol31

[voiciblanche]

[quote name='M.SIGGA' date='Jun 12 2004, 05:43 PM'] I know of so many new converts to the Church of late teens and young 20 somethings out of many non-Catholic churches who are in love with this movement [/quote]
Just a note that came to me when I was reading your response, M.SIGGA.

The Charismatic Renewal is a classic example of New Evangelization. I love New Evangelization, but it cannot sustain on its own. The purpose of New Evangelization is to draw people into the Church so that older, more traditional ways can be revealed and embraced by the people that were drawn in. This is like the OT and the NT. "The New Testament is hidden in the Old Testament, and the Old becomes clear in the New." - Dei Verbum, the Vat. Council II. Now, let's look at this in terms of New Evangelization and "Old" Evangelization, since I don't have a better term for it.

New Evangelization can draw you in, but it cannot sustain. If I fall in love with a Catholic T-shirt or a retreat, I've brought myself closer to Christ - but the Word hasn't taken root. I [i]need[/i] some of the traditional, "Old" Evangelization to keep me strong in the Faith - Mass, the Sacraments, etc. Obviously, the Charismatic Renewal includes traditions, but perhaps its main purpose should be to draw people in. Perhaps it cannot sustain on its own. Honestly, I don't know enough about the renewal to say. But this is what some of us mean by contemplating, say, the Pope's support of the renewal. In the beginning of this paragraph I mentioned New Evangelization through a Catholic T-shirt. Well, the same idea applies with the Pope's support of the renewal. Would he ever condemn a Catholic T-shirt? No! But does that mean that you can substitute a T-shirt for a tradition? 'Course not. So, is he going to condemn the renewal? No! But does that mean that the renewal on its own can keep a person strong in the Faith? Perhaps it can, but we should be careful... just a thought.

Edited June 14, 2004 by voiciblanche