amour absolu - docu about bethlehem sisters

[Gabriela]

There has to be a way of discussing these things honestly without fear of reprimand.

​I wholeheartedly and emphatically agree. I don't think the VS is a place for censorship. Charity and censorship are not the same, and my feeling is we've been toeing this line between them for a very long time. I think we need to come up with a policy or even just some kind of unspoken but clearly understood norm that will allow people to express specific concerns about or negative experiences with a community without the wrath of nun-idolizers coming down on them. Communities are not perfect, and discerners are not perfect. Nobody should read one post in the VS—or anywhere—and immediately discount a whole community. For all we know, a poster saying negative things could have "issues" and have been rightfully rejected/"offended" by the community. Or there could be all sorts of other unstated explanations. And if several people say the same things about a community, well then, it's probably something to seriously look out for and so should really not be shouted down as "uncharitable". Others who have had positive experiences with the same community can always feel free to balance the picture with their stories.

In the end, it's about freedom of speech and the uniqueness of the VS as a place where people can really learn about religious life—both the good and the bad, which is so very hard, if not impossible, to get anywhere else. Every individual on here has a personal responsibility both to be fair and charitable (to the community and to her fellow VSers), AND ALSO to be interested in the truth and to consider posts critically.

Edited May 22, 2015 by Gabriela

[oremus1]

Thank you so much for posting this!  I love those sisters so much!  I have been to their monastery in Livingston Manor, NY a few different times now either for single days of prayer or for retreat.  And just last week, on the feast of the Ascension, I was able to spend some time in prayer at their monastery in Paris!!!  It was such an incredible gift to be there with them.

Thank you for posting...I hope to be able to actually watch the whole thing soon!

​Can one actually make retreat there at the one in Paris?

[genesisweavers]

Perhaps if we look at the facts contained in a specific post that we are considering as a journalist might it may shed some light on the issue of what gets through.  A good journalist would verify the facts and scrutinize the source.  The consequences are the same - it can create a good impression or a bad impression - our job is to determine if what we say is the truth.  Then the impression that's created is not a reflection on us or on this phorum.  We don't what this place to be like the National Inquirer - sensational, attention getting and false.  Therefore they don't have any credibility. 

Here's is a brief 'mission statement' I found in one of the Bethlehem publications:  They (the Sisters and Brother) have no other responsibility to accomplish in the Church than to anticipate already on earth the life of loving contemplation of the Virgin Mary dwelling in the most Holy Trinity.  (And for my part I can say that is 100% accurate)..

Blessings - john

[NadaTeTurbe]

dUSt explained in another thread that I did not get the phishy tag because of this thread. 

[puellapaschalis]

So on the one hand we have a slew of rules (or sub-rules) about not naming people, or the communities they may or may not be involved with, unless we/they/someone/the bogey monster has express permission from not only those people and the community....and on the other people feel we should be able to critique communities without fear of reprimand.

Both scenarios involve possibly negative comments about a community which by and large is not able to give its own side to the story.

We might say that one case is more personal than the other - but is any discussion of this possible without it being personal?

What's it to be, Phatmass?

[Egeria]

I don't know enough about this situation to comment on its specifics, but there are cases in which information needs to be brought to discerners' attention so that they can be warned and investigate matters further themselves. I originally signed up for Phatmass because when I saw someone asking about Tyburn, and saw others responding in glowing terms, I knew enough about it to know that she needed to be warned that everything was not all sweetness and light there. Fortunately others with more experience then confirmed this and gave more details, but I saw that others later took offence at this, which disturbed me. There are unhealthy communities out there and while I'm not suggesting that one should air everyone's laundry in public, there are situations that people need to be protected from. Whether that is the case in this instance, I don't know (some of the allegations are not entirely new to me, but I don't know how accurate they are) but people can always investigate further and draw their own conclusions.

[veritasluxmea]

@dUSt@Credo in Deum could a Mediator of Meh possibly state for us an acceptable way or the guidelines for sharing concerns about a community? 

Nada, you wouldn't get a phisy tag for making a faux pas- it's only for rule breakers or catholics who go against the Church, as dust explained in the open mike.

[Credo in Deum]

Yes, my rule would be if you don't have anything nice to say then don't say anything at all.  Some people are too opinionated and make mountains out of mole hills, so why allow such people to invade VS with constant negative discussion about religious communities?  Sure in a perfect world this wouldn't happen and there would be balanced and reasonable discussions, but this is not a perfect world. If you have concerns about a community then you can say things like "I like them but I'm on the fence about such and such a community."  If others want to know why a member is on the fence then they can PM them.  If you don't have PM capabilities then you will want to up your post count so then you can get them. 

[Antigonos]

Yes, my rule would be if you don't have anything nice to say then don't say anything at all.  Some people are too opinionated and make mountains out of mole hills, so why allow such people to invade VS with constant negative discussion about religious communities?  Sure in a perfect world this wouldn't happen and there would be balanced and reasonable discussions, but this is not a perfect world. If you have concerns about a community then you can say things like "I like them but I'm on the fence about such and such a community."  If others want to know why a member is on the fence then they can PM them.  If you don't have PM capabilities then you will want to up your post count so then you can get them. 

​IMHO -- and it really is my OWN opinion -- just stating "this community has issues" allows one's imaginations to go berserk with wondering just how dreadful things are.  Yet, I can fully understand not wanting to spell things out in the forum.  The line is fine, and difficult to maintain. Credo, you seem to have the balance about right.

[josephine]

woooow....and i only thought i was posting a link to a nice movie, and see what happened!

 

my 2 cents in this discussion:

i think every discerner needs to be very aware that all communities, especialy new communities, can/might have issues.

that doesn't mean that the people in those communities are evil or not sincere in their faith.

there is this old thread (?) that gets ressurected once in a while "questions to ask" and "ten signs you need to look out for"

and i think that one also applies here.

 

I think that the life of the little sisters is very beautiful and neccesary in todays world.

I also think that some of their practises could be more prone to abuse: for instance the fact that your spiritual director would be within the community, and that you would record your thoughts and discuss them with your "staretz". I'm not saying that this is neccesarily always bad or evil: i believe it can be a very interesting spiritual practice to reflect on your thoughts and i also think it can be very helpful to have a spiritual director who knows the life very well.

however, it  could also lead to "mindcontrol" or other nasty things.

 

so my advice? visit them, enjoy their beautiful liturgy, their quiet monasteries, their wisdom, their art.

and keep in mind that any monastery, any community (just like any family, or company, or whatever) might have issues,

and know what the warning signs are.

 

i hope this makes any sense? maybe someone can try and find those warning signs/questions to ask thread again?

 

 

[vee]

there is this old thread (?) that gets ressurected once in a while "questions to ask" and "ten signs you need to look out for"

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/77767-going-on-a-nun-run/  Trad moms post #11 I think.  it is epic and has come in very handy for me!

 

[dUSt]

Just be open and honest. Be factual, and don't gossip. If there are concerns, express them, but they should be based on solid facts, and not hearsay.

[mariepaix]

The Monastic Sisters of Bethlehem have finally issued a public apology for all the damage they have done to sisters with deep wounds and trauma because of their dysfuntion.  https://english.bethleem.org/annonces/20210104_press_release.php

After being investigated by the Vatican they have set up a listening cell for ex sisters so they can give their testimony.  You will find their email on the page of the public apology.  If you are an ex sister of Beth. please do not hesitate to testify so the many wrongs perpetuated by this community may be corrected.  

Many sisters have written comments and testimonies at this website which also has the dossier that was brought to the Vatican by an ex brother. https://www.lenversdudecor.org/Communaute-de-Bethleem-les-revelations-accablantes-d-un.html  It is in french but you can translate it.

Unfortunately because most of the information about the Bethlehem scandal is in French it has not reached America.  There is also a private forum for ex sisters that is very helpful for them who are trying to heal from the abhorrent things they experienced while at Beth. https://www.lenversdudecor.org/Une-association-pour-aider-les-anciens-de-la-communaute-de.html

Please beware of sending anyone to their monastery in Livingston.  

 

Edited March 9, 2021 by mariepaix