Sisters of Bethlehem

[mariepaix]

4 minutes ago, Gabriela said:

Seriously? Do they have a website?

 

Are these testimonies online? I'd be interested to read them to see if they accord with my experience.

Yes.  Here it is http://www.lenversdudecor.org/-Soeur-Marie-.html.  

What is NGO?  Is there a link for it?

[Feankie]

An NGO here in the States is a non-governmental organization

[Gabriela]

18 minutes ago, mariepaix said:

Yes.  Here it is http://www.lenversdudecor.org/-Soeur-Marie-.html.  

What is NGO?  Is there a link for it?

"NGO" is "non-governmental organization", basically a non-profit organization. I'll let @NadaTeTurbeshare that link if she wishes.

[graciandelamadrededios]

42 minutes ago, mariepaix said:

Yes.  Here it is http://www.lenversdudecor.org/-Soeur-Marie-.html.  

What is NGO?  Is there a link for it?

Thanks for the link but its in French...and unfortunately, my french is very, very limited.

Edited August 31, 2016 by graciandelamadrededios

[mariepaix]

Yes.  Everything I find about them is in French.  

[AveMariaPurissima]

On 8/31/2016 at 6:18 PM, graciandelamadrededios said:

Thanks for the link but its in French...and unfortunately, my french is very, very limited.

My French is basically nonexistent, but I was able to read some of the testimonies by right-clicking and choosing "Translate to English."  It was a little choppy but understandable enough.  And there's always Google Translate too.

[mariepaix]

And at that link is also the dossier that Fabio Barbero(Former monk and Prioress) brought to the Vatican as well at the response from Bethlehem by Brother Silouan.

This blog  also has some information http://cite-catholique.org/viewtopic.php?f=130&t=31505 .  One former nun 'AncienBethleem' posts quite a bit and gives interesting incites into the development and practices of Bethlehem.  

I think that any information about them on the internet will be in French.  

[katherineH]

I am a native French speaker so I browsed through the site and was able to glean the main points for anyone who is interested. The document is over 100 pages long and is a collection of various personal testimonies of former members of the community.  Here is a summary of the first one and its points are echoed throughout the document

• Personality cult around Sr. Marie
• Belief that there is no real salvation outside of the community (i.e. sense of spiritual superiority above lay people and even other communities)
• No right to consistent spiritual direction by the same priest.
• Excessive limitations on what spiritual readings sisters had access to (everything had to come from their founder or the priest).
• Lack of transparency with their finances, feeling that they were above the law.
• Excessive policing of family interactions. Only allow to write one letter per trimester to family.  All mail received was read by the superior who decided whether or not you would be allowed to read it.
• No actual formation (no instruction or guidance during the novitiate)
• Increased devotions to messages or appearances not approved by the Church
• Underfed and lack of access to medical care (many sisters stopped having their periods because they were so unhealthy)
• "selective poverty" (certain sisters were granted privileges that were not available to others, especially Sr. Marie who had special meals while the other sisters had to eat basically scraps)
• manipulative and "seductive" vocation practices to recruit new sisters
• No personal space: sisters have to be in 3s at all time to prevent to prevent personal discussions
• No ability to ask questions about anything. All questions are perceived as a defiance towards authority

Interestingly, the website has a section called "droit de reponse" ("right to respond"). They've published a letter by one of the community's priests who tries to address the concerns by former members. The response accuses the "whistleblowers" of being unreliable, themselves indoctrinated, and responsible for many of the problems of which they accuse the community. The language is quite...intense. "C'est dire si ce texte infamant est mensonger. C'est dire si son auteur occulte sciemment une partie des faits pour porter ses accusations infondées." = "This inflammatory text is a lie. Its author is hiding facts in order to support its unfounded accusations."
 

[Gabriela]

10 hours ago, katherineH said:

I am a native French speaker so I browsed through the site and was able to glean the main points for anyone who is interested. The document is over 100 pages long and is a collection of various personal testimonies of former members of the community.  Here is a summary of the first one and its points are echoed throughout the document

• Personality cult around Sr. Marie
• Belief that there is no real salvation outside of the community (i.e. sense of spiritual superiority above lay people and even other communities)
• No right to consistent spiritual direction by the same priest.
• Excessive limitations on what spiritual readings sisters had access to (everything had to come from their founder or the priest).
• Lack of transparency with their finances, feeling that they were above the law.
• Excessive policing of family interactions. Only allow to write one letter per trimester to family.  All mail received was read by the superior who decided whether or not you would be allowed to read it.
• No actual formation (no instruction or guidance during the novitiate)
• Increased devotions to messages or appearances not approved by the Church
• Underfed and lack of access to medical care (many sisters stopped having their periods because they were so unhealthy)
• "selective poverty" (certain sisters were granted privileges that were not available to others, especially Sr. Marie who had special meals while the other sisters had to eat basically scraps)
• manipulative and "seductive" vocation practices to recruit new sisters
• No personal space: sisters have to be in 3s at all time to prevent to prevent personal discussions
• No ability to ask questions about anything. All questions are perceived as a defiance towards authority

Interestingly, the website has a section called "droit de reponse" ("right to respond"). They've published a letter by one of the community's priests who tries to address the concerns by former members. The response accuses the "whistleblowers" of being unreliable, themselves indoctrinated, and responsible for many of the problems of which they accuse the community. The language is quite...intense. "C'est dire si ce texte infamant est mensonger. C'est dire si son auteur occulte sciemment une partie des faits pour porter ses accusations infondées." = "This inflammatory text is a lie. Its author is hiding facts in order to support its unfounded accusations."
 

[genesisweavers]

One thing that struck me about the translation of Katherine H is out of 100 pages the only things that were shared was a list of 13 very negative and pergorative traits about this Monastic Family.  And in the last paragraph she said - in a statement issued by a priest - that particular priest is the Prior General of the Bethlehem Monks.  The entire thing reminds me of the 'fair' reporting we often see on TV - for instance in the Presential (Circus) election that we have in our faces every day.  

 

I have quite a bit of experience with the Monastic Family of Bethlehem and I can honestly say I have never seen a trace of anything that appears on the list of 13 found in this forum.  I have visited their monasteries in Europe and I lived at the Monastery in NY for five years.  I know the families of many Sisters, the benefactors, the many retreatants who come every year (at least), priests and religious from other congregations and the Sisters themselves.  There is no evidence at all of any type of mitigations of religious decorum or any falsification of who they are.  

 

In the secular world we see so many damaged people who suffer from broken marriages, abuse, overwork and multiple stresses.  It shows up in the behavior even if we don't know the cause of it.  With the Sisters I have never seen any behavioral signs of living in a dysfunctional or pretentious community.  Each Sister radiates kindness, serenity, a maximum of charity, and fidelity to her vocation - yes really! 

 

This morning I read the homily of Abbot Peter McCarthy given at the first profession of vows of Bro Scott - a member of the Abbey of our Lady of Guadalupe.  Fr Abbot addresses his words to the new Brother:  To be blunt you are throwing your lot with a herd of lost sheep! Our only hope - is our belief - in Jesus' own words - that He Himself is the Shepherd of the Lost Shepherd. 

And earlier in the homily Fr Abbot uses the words of Jesus:  For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it.  But whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."  

 

I don't pretend to understand any of this - Some very big questions still remain in own head - like:  Why are the Sisters who for me are the best people I ever met under attack from disappointed drop outs? What is our fascination with these discrutled ones? Why do some go to a Monastery and find peace, harmony, and love and others can't wait to leave.  

 

When Regina Laudis was going through their dark night the Abbess at the time - Mother Benedict said:  If anyone wants to know who we are they should come here and see for themselves.  

 

After all, Jesus Himself was really only understood by a very few - there were others who wanted to kill him - and they did.  

 

May you be blessed 

Your brother 

John McHale

[mariepaix]

Just a few thoughts.....I was with the sisters for some years and can attest that I witnessed many things that Fabio wrote about in his dossier.  Unless one lives inside of a community one doesn't truly know what goes on. How can you as an outsider know of the sisters' 'fidelity' to their vocation?   Yes, I know the sisters appear as 'angels' to outsiders and it's hard to have our image of them shattered. 

 I don't think it's fair to  label those who have left as 'disappointed dropouts'....the testimonies I've read seem quite accurate.  ... the suicide of the Polish sister as well as covering it up was the most disturbing and shocking of all for me since I knew many of the Polish sisters and they all appeared to have such strong faith.  Lord have mercy! 

There are some serious problems in this Community that need to be addressed and corrected. 

 

[josephine]

There was a woman from my country who left this order after +10 years. She had a certain mystical experience and after that turned all vaguely sorta new age spiritual and although she was very very positive about the order and her experiences there in general, there were a lot of stuff in the files that she describes as well. 

Some examples:

- the lack of possibilty to speak to an outside confessor. The sisters have an older sister who is supposed to be their spiritual guide. One can easily see how this might have started as a good idea (something with eastern monasticm! Someone who understands community life!) but can quickly end very very badly: (internal/external forum, lack of access to the sacrament of confession)

- weird new age practises. At one time the woman was refused to see a doctor. In the files there are also a couple of testimonies of people who were not allowed to see doctors but were taken to shady people instead.

- the lack of a healthy diet. The woman described how she had certain vitamin and iron deficiencies. She was also encouraged to fast extensively.

I really hope that Rome clears this up!

I mean, the idea of Bethlehem is definetly very beautiful and i believe that even in communities of good people, very unhealthy patterns can exist. That is why it is so important that these testimonies are taken seriously and investigated, so that problems can be addressed and corrected.

 

[Gabriela]

8 hours ago, genesisweavers said:

One thing that struck me about the translation of Katherine H is out of 100 pages the only things that were shared was a list of 13 very negative and pergorative traits about this Monastic Family.  And in the last paragraph she said - in a statement issued by a priest - that particular priest is the Prior General of the Bethlehem Monks.  The entire thing reminds me of the 'fair' reporting we often see on TV - for instance in the Presential (Circus) election that we have in our faces every day.  

I have quite a bit of experience with the Monastic Family of Bethlehem and I can honestly say I have never seen a trace of anything that appears on the list of 13 found in this forum.  I have visited their monasteries in Europe and I lived at the Monastery in NY for five years.  I know the families of many Sisters, the benefactors, the many retreatants who come every year (at least), priests and religious from other congregations and the Sisters themselves.  There is no evidence at all of any type of mitigations of religious decorum or any falsification of who they are.  

 

In the secular world we see so many damaged people who suffer from broken marriages, abuse, overwork and multiple stresses.  It shows up in the behavior even if we don't know the cause of it.  With the Sisters I have never seen any behavioral signs of living in a dysfunctional or pretentious community.  Each Sister radiates kindness, serenity, a maximum of charity, and fidelity to her vocation - yes really! 

 

This morning I read the homily of Abbot Peter McCarthy given at the first profession of vows of Bro Scott - a member of the Abbey of our Lady of Guadalupe.  Fr Abbot addresses his words to the new Brother:  To be blunt you are throwing your lot with a herd of lost sheep! Our only hope - is our belief - in Jesus' own words - that He Himself is the Shepherd of the Lost Shepherd. 

And earlier in the homily Fr Abbot uses the words of Jesus:  For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it.  But whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."  

 

I don't pretend to understand any of this - Some very big questions still remain in own head - like:  Why are the Sisters who for me are the best people I ever met under attack from disappointed drop outs? What is our fascination with these discrutled ones? Why do some go to a Monastery and find peace, harmony, and love and others can't wait to leave.  

 

When Regina Laudis was going through their dark night the Abbess at the time - Mother Benedict said:  If anyone wants to know who we are they should come here and see for themselves.  

 

After all, Jesus Himself was really only understood by a very few - there were others who wanted to kill him - and they did.  

 

May you be blessed 

Your brother 

John McHale

John, we've had this conversation before. You didn't live inside the community. Your experience of the sisters is very different from those who did. The "biased reporting" you mention is natural, because katherineH's quote is from a document that contains ONLY complaints about the order. So it's not like katherineH is biasing the translation. Anyway, what we're talking about here are the concerns people have, not the wonderful things about the MFB—which of course there are.

It isn't really fair or charitable to suggest that, because from the outside you saw nothing wrong, the Vatican and a bunch of the people who lived in the community must be biased or in error. If Rome is investigating, something's up. And given the specific concerns that people have expressed, I don't think it's wise to tell people in this particular case that they should go to the community to see for themselves. One of the biggest problems with the MFB is their lack of transparency. You can't see for yourself because they will not show you the problems. I wasted over a year with them before I finally realized that. A lot of women waste much more than that.

I'm very glad that you had such a wonderful experience with the sisters, and I know it must be very painful for you to hear people say these things about them. Of course many of the individual sisters are wonderful people. Surely most of them have the best of intentions. The problem isn't with the individual sisters, but with the community, on the organizational level. So while I understand that you want to defend them, maybe you could refrain from suggesting that there's nothing wrong with the MFB at all and instead speak from the concrete experience that you had, for example, by telling people their grounds are a wonderful place to make a retreat (on the outside), or that their artwork is gorgeous and worth buying, or that their liturgy is beautiful and prayerful and uplifting, or that Sister So-and-So once did such-and-such, etc. You must know from your time in the VS that many of the discerners in here are very impressionable, so it's probably not good to where the Vatican is .

[beatitude]

On a related note, I was in an abusive situation (not a religious community - my abuser was a close friend) for a few years. For most of that time no one had any clue what was happening to me, even though I was clinically depressed, often anxious, and struggling with my eating. I had a reputation for always being cheerful and optimistic and having a lively sense of humour. I had a responsible interesting job and was respected in my parish community. My closest friends would have vouched for everything being perfect in my world. Meanwhile I would sometimes go to bed half-crushed under the weight of what was happening and fantasise about dying in the night. That was how I cheered myself up - I wasn't suicidal, as I never actively wanted to harm myself, but the thought of not being around any more was a bedtime comfort.

The point: a person or a community can look as though they're flourishing, even to people who are close. It doesn't mean that nothing is wrong.

[genesisweavers]

Dear Friends - I wanted to write to you yesterday but unfortunately I didn't find the time in yesterday's happenings. I was eager to get a word off to you because I realized that my words were hitting on some wounds of those who were reading them. And unfortunately the texts that started this whole conversation were hitting on some wounds of my own. Just today some of those sore spots came into my consciousness and I thought I might share a little bit of that with you - not by way of an excuse but simply a hope that you will all understand.

I straddle the two generations of pre-Vatican II and post-Vatican II. Even though I was excited and welcoming to some of what the Council brought to the church I was also grieved by some of what we lost. So when I discovered Bethlehem I felt such a rapport with the atmosphere and environment with the monastery. I think what appealed to me the most was probably a balance that I felt there that restored for me a greater sense of belonging to something I believed in. And I do get the idea of being on the outside looking in. Just to take all of this out of the specific realm of Bethlehem - when I visited the Maronite Monks in Massachusetts the one thing that spoke to me the most of their authenticity was - each monk spends two hours a day in the adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. The same thinking can be applied to the Bethlehem. And this is the path to my conclusion - anyone who spends two hour each day in silent adoration of our Lord in the Eucharist has got to be on the right track. And so with the Monastic Sisters - anyone who can live in silence and solitude etc. I always said - there can't be any fakers in a Charterhouse. And the Carthusians themselves have a rather graphic saying - if a monk is unfaithful to his vocation to life in the cell - the cell will vomit him out.

Unfortunately the history of religious life is filled with all kinds of stories of abuse and wrong thinking. In the first post on this topic I quoted the Abbot of Guadalupe Abbey. In a sermon he gave on the first profession of Bro Scott recently Fr Abbot uses the Gospel of St Matthew as the source for his remarks. One of the Gospel stories was the woman cured of the hemorrhage. "She was made whole". Fr Abbot asks "how we long to be made whole; to collect all the missing pieces of our lives...to get my act together. But Jesus is telling us - we cannot make ourselves whole - we cannot get our act together - by ourselves. Jesus comes to save that which is lost. He goes to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. If you find yourself feeling lost - not whole - Jesus is searching for you!"