Charleston Shooting Suspect (Derailed: Confederate Flag Debate)

[Peace]

Hyperbolic sarcasm of the other side's position yes. But no I don't believe the full historical facts make a dang bit of difference because the Flag is racist that's all that really matters. The highly simplistic "that's racist" or "most think it's racist so it's racist" has been the foundation argument of the other side throughout this discussion. It reminds me of trying to have discussions with those who are in favor of homosexual unions. Any argument against no matter how well thought out and back up by facts is reduced down to "that's homophobic" or "that's bigoted" or "whatever it is bigoted to be against gay marriage."

I think the thrust of the argument here has been that African Americans are rightly justified in viewing the Confederate Flag as a symbol of racism based on the manner in which the flag has been used historically, and that it would be insensitive for someone to fly the flag with the knowledge of the pain that it causes others, without some other compelling reason. I did not find the argument to be highly simplistic, but rather quite merited. But I suppose that is why we disagree.

As I indicated previously, I realize that others may find offense at the Crucifix, but I have compelling reasons to display it. If you have compelling reasons to fly the Confederate Flag even though most African Americans view it as a symbol of racism then by all means fly it. That is certainly your right.

You continue to judge others on the pigmentation of skin color. I merely pointed out that life is far more complex than this discussion has focused upon and yes I used real life examples of my friends. Real life examples that show life is not as simple as it may seem. Yet you reduce it down to a simplistic "I know a black person that..." and dismissing it out of hand because of my skin pigmentation. Which does go right along with what I said about tunnel vision.

Quite the contrary. If Ice_Nice or another person of African descent makes the same argument that you made, he/she can expect to receive the same response that I gave to you. The response was not dependent on your skin pigmentation (or lack thereof).

[Ice_nine]

Ice_Nine is white in real life. But most people think I'm a man on the internet so . . . I'm gonna go find the most white girl avatar I can get my digital hands on

[Peace]

Ice_Nine is white in real life. But most people think I'm a man on the internet so . . . I'm gonna go find the most white girl avatar I can get my digital hands on

I had guessed that you were an African American woman. Well. This changes everything. EVERYTHING! J/K

[BG45]

BG45: that is one of the few points of view I find has legitimate respect and contains real substance. I respect the content, although I agree with everything I do respect.  

Civility, in DT?  (Dude I expect it from you,  but still.  Some would claim it's the End Times that we're all not gnashing teeth.:P )  But agreed, totally capable of listening to others' without getting too cranky in disagreement.

*what I meant above was that I respect the point of view even though I do not out right share it.  

 

Not easy using these phone-things to post sometimes.  

I'd actually not know haha; I've got a phone with no net access.  So I'll definitely take your word for it (and everyone else).  I don't even have auto-correct, so when I typo a text, I have to admit blame for poor spelling.    

Neither did Gen. Lee run around trashing and denigrating the character of his former Confederate comrades in arms, or demand that their memory be reviled or blotted out in shame.

Does the current aggressive push to remove all traces of Confederate imagery from public commerce, digging up graves, demands to destroy existing monuments, and the comparison to Nazis and such, do anything at all to promote healing and end division, or does it rather do the opposite?

 

No he did not, but you seem to be putting positions in people's mouths.   The whole "demand their memory be reviled"?  Or have it "blotted out in shame"?  Care to show me where I did that?  Because I firmly believe that the Civil War should be taught in schools.  By any chance have you ever seen the drama Gods and Generals?  Amazing film.  Utterly humanizes people on both sides and shows how people on both sides were mostly about caring about their families, that high ideals weren't the norm for anyone on the North or South.  

Also not sure where the whole comparison to Nazis thing is coming from...unless you're trying to lump an entire group of people together based on a few ideological traits...almost like one might accuse some of doing with a certain flag?  But no Soc, I don't believe in digging up graves, nor banning games about the Civil War from the Apple Store for representing things in a historical context by using the "Confederate" flag where it belonged in the Army of Northern Virginia. I'm not yelling from the treetops that the monument of Stonewall Jackson in my home town be ripped down, while the Union soldier across from it stand there proudly still.  

I was just pointing out the opinion of a man who lived through something we hopefully never will.  600,000 to 850,000 people died and 150 years later, people are still arguing and trying to assign blame.  Seems like Lee failed at that whole attempt to heal the nation.

[Socrates]

No he did not, but you seem to be putting positions in people's mouths.   The whole "demand their memory be reviled"?  Or have it "blotted out in shame"?  Care to show me where I did that?  Because I firmly believe that the Civil War should be taught in schools.  By any chance have you ever seen the drama Gods and Generals?  Amazing film.  Utterly humanizes people on both sides and shows how people on both sides were mostly about caring about their families, that high ideals weren't the norm for anyone on the North or South.  

Also not sure where the whole comparison to Nazis thing is coming from...unless you're trying to lump an entire group of people together based on a few ideological traits...almost like one might accuse some of doing with a certain flag?  But no Soc, I don't believe in digging up graves, nor banning games about the Civil War from the Apple Store for representing things in a historical context by using the "Confederate" flag where it belonged in the Army of Northern Virginia. I'm not yelling from the treetops that the monument of Stonewall Jackson in my home town be ripped down, while the Union soldier across from it stand there proudly still.  

I was just pointing out the opinion of a man who lived through something we hopefully never will.  600,000 to 850,000 people died and 150 years later, people are still arguing and trying to assign blame.  Seems like Lee failed at that whole attempt to heal the nation.

I actually wasn't referring to you at all when I made the comments about the memory of Confederates being reviled and blotted out in shame.  (I actually thought your post was the most intelligent and thoughtful of any I've seen on here from the "other side" of the flag debate.)  I apologize for not not making that sufficiently clear.

I was referring to the folks demanding that various memorials (including privately funded memorials) be torn down, pulling any items with the flag from stores, etc.  And yes, other people, both on Phatmass and elsewhere, were comparing the Confederates to Nazis, and calling them shameful traitors and such.

I was ,mostly making the point that much of the current anti-Confederate excesses and vitriol were in reality doing little to encourage healing or end division.

I have watched (and own) Gods & Generals, and think it's probably the finest treatment of that war and its actors (especially Stonewall Jackson) on film.  I've also written a thesis on Jackson's Shenandoah Valley campaign.

Thanks for clarifying your position, and I hope I've made the context of my own comments more clear.  (I actually wanted my response to yours to be in a separate post from my response to Lillabett, but the system insisted on merging them together.)

[Socrates]

Who is "us."  The us you are referring to is the white people of the South.

If the Confederate flag is not a symbol of white culture, but of just "the South," then how come black southerners don't get to help decide what the flag symbolizes? They are Southerners aren't they? Shouldn't they also be experts on what "southern heritage" is?

You have to get this. A black southerner's idea of "southern heritage" is going to be a lot different from a white hick's idea of "southern heritage." Black people in the south do not look back at southern history and  see the "good ol' days." They see the "bad ol' days." White people remember dime stores, sweet tea, and genteel tradition. Black people remember that great grandma was born a slave and great grandpa hung from a tree. That's the black person's "southern heritage." 

None of this is news to South Carolina. Everyone there was well aware that whenever a black citizen looked up at the state house they would see a reminder of a time when they were considered property. Everyone knew. The truth is, white people with the power and money didn't care enough to give up their cherished traditions just because that tradition was a daily experience of degradation and disrespect to another poor, less powerful section of the population.

Then that white southern hick killed all those black Christians in church, and the survivors forgave him instantly. And that was the key ingredient right there. The magnanimity of their compassion made all those white people aware of how stingy they had been.

I think it is sad that a white southerner had to murder a bunch of black southerners, and the black southerners had to forgive him, before black citizens' interpretation of the symbol was taken seriously. 

But that's what it was. Forgiveness shamed them all.

 

I'm not going to keep endlessly arguing the fine points, as your posts make it abundantly clear you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

My mother's side of family (proudly Southern) were Ozark hillbilly farmers, not plantation owners nostalgically looking back at plantation life and "darkies" slaving in the fields.

And black Southerners are not monolithic in opposing the flag.  A guy I knew who got expelled from a college from hanging a Confederate battle flag in his dormroom (he's now an Airborne Ranger) was actually defended by black Southern classmates, who said the flag stood for Southern pride, and weren't offended by it.  (Not to mention lots of black Ole Miss Rebels players and fans who proudly waved the flag.)

Yes, the forgiveness of those church members was indeed impressive, but I simply don't see any of this current ruckus and attacks on the flag and Confederate memorials as actually having any real positive healing effect.  It's just more divisive politics.

[Peace]

I'm not going to keep endlessly arguing the fine points, as your posts make it abundantly clear you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

It seems to me that these are the types of statements that people resort to when they have lost on the merits of the debate.

[Socrates]

It seems to me that these are the types of statements that people resort to when they have lost on the merits of the debate.

Nah, just don't see the point in repeating myself to those who don't want to listen.

And sorry, but statements such as "Southern heritage is just a euphemism for White Pride" betray (at best) utter ignorance about the South and Southerners.  

(In Virginia now - Confederate flags flying from beds of pickup trucks all over - beautiful.)

[Peace]

Nah, just don't see the point in repeating myself to those who don't want to listen.

And sorry, but statements such as "Southern heritage is just a euphemism for White Pride" betray (at best) utter ignorance about the South and Southerners.  

(In Virginia now - Confederate flags flying from beds of pickup trucks all over - beautiful.)

What part of VA? Granted, one would not expect to see too many here in Arlington.

[Socrates]

What part of VA? Granted, one would not expect to see too many here in Arlington.

Shenandoah Valley.  Arlington and the rest of the NoVa / D.C. metro area is no longer really Southern at all.  Different worlds.

[Peace]

Shenandoah Valley.  Arlington and the rest of the NoVa / D.C. metro area is no longer really Southern at all.  Different worlds.

We don't have enough pickup trucks and Confederate Flags here for your liking? I guess I am missing out on all of the fun.

[Anomaly]

Drove by a convoy of about fifty vehicles with various confederate and US flags Saturday.   Outside of Tampa, and yes, it was raining. LOL.  

[Era Might]

Pride comes in many forms. It's also one of the seven deadly sins. Gang members are proud of their gang, their tattoos, their colors...and it's all bound up with family, loyalty, tradition, etc. But they also have to reexamine their symbols when life changes and their context changes. I'd be just as wary of approaching someone flaunting a confederate flag as I would be someone flaunting gang tattoos on their face. Not saying either one is wrong, but for beaver dam sure it's not a mark of friendliness. 

 

Edited August 12, 2015 by Era Might

[Winchester]

16 pages.

Summarizing the sane position: Rag. Not worth defending. Let people display their allegiance so you can avoid them. Yes, even if those people are magic gubbmint men.

Really boiling it down: Flying flag: Atavistic idiocy. Banning flag: Bad idea from a practical standpoint.

 

[Nunsense]

16 pages.

Summarizing the sane position: Rag. Not worth defending. Let people display their allegiance so you can avoid them. Yes, even if those people are magic gubbmint men.

Really boiling it down: Flying flag: Atavistic idiocy. Banning flag: Bad idea from a practical standpoint.

 

Ok, clarify here,Win. Are you on the fence or do you really not care about this topic?  You're right though - 16 pages - not a circle, more like a figure 8 on its side, infinity.the never ending argument........

[Winchester]

Ok, clarify here,Win. Are you on the fence or do you really not care about this topic?  You're right though - 16 pages - not a circle, more like a figure 8 on its side, infinity.the never ending argument........

The flag means whatever each person thinks it means. What it was employed to represent is a matter of history. The government that used it was on the side of the confederacy, which was formed in response to nullification of the fugitive slave laws. Secession was in fact an attempt to preserve slavery in the South. It wasn't noble, it wasn't based on liberty. There is nothing noble in preserving slavery. It's disgusting.

On the other hand, Abraham Lincoln didn't support invasion of the confederacy to free slaves. He was a piece of garbage nationalist scumbag who employed kidnapping to man his army (It was called conscription because those who belong to the cult of the State are morally bankrupt).

 

Northern Government: Scum

Southern Government: Scum

 

Individual soldiers: Mostly poor dumb bastards dealing with the fallout from the actions of pieces of garbage in political offices.

 

I will neither fly nor bother to destroy the flag of the confederacy or the flag of the union. They are equally ridiculous, although the latter certainly has more murder under its shadow than the other. That's not what it means to everyone, sure. But whatever. I want people to fly their ridiculous flags. Mark themselves. Gives me a little bit of an idea what I'm dealing with.

[Nunsense]

The flag means whatever each person thinks it means. What it was employed to represent is a matter of history. The government that used it was on the side of the confederacy, which was formed in response to nullification of the fugitive slave laws. Secession was in fact an attempt to preserve slavery in the South. It wasn't noble, it wasn't based on liberty. There is nothing noble in preserving slavery. It's disgusting.

On the other hand, Abraham Lincoln didn't support invasion of the confederacy to free slaves. He was a piece of garbage nationalist scumbag who employed kidnapping to man his army (It was called conscription because those who belong to the cult of the State are morally bankrupt).

 

Northern Government: Scum

Southern Government: Scum

 

Individual soldiers: Mostly poor dumb bastards dealing with the fallout from the actions of pieces of garbage in political offices.

 

I will neither fly nor bother to destroy the flag of the confederacy or the flag of the union. They are equally ridiculous, although the latter certainly has more murder under its shadow than the other. That's not what it means to everyone, sure. But whatever. I want people to fly their ridiculous flags. Mark themselves. Gives me a little bit of an idea what I'm dealing with.

Interesting perspective. Food for thought.

 

[Winchester]

I feel a better response to the Civil war would have been for the soldiers on each side to turn around a kill every single one of the members of their respective ruling classes. Including the dumbass generals obeying the orders of the most worthless portion of humanity, which has always been the political class.

Okay, the best response would have just been for the soldiers to say "no". The gutless wonders in elected office would mostly not have done anything. The few that did could have been beaten into submission.

 

This is what should be done today. Just say "no". Problem is, the enforcement class has the tendency to murder the hell out of anyone who says "no" to the political class. Best just to keep your head down and obey.

[Luigi]

In the US, we've had an all-volunteer army since 1972. The Air Force, Marines, and Navy have been all-volunteer much longer than that. 

So I wouldn't say the political class has been murdering the hell out of anyone who says "no" to them - at least not lately. 

And that's primarily because the Viet Nam-era anti-draft protesters chanted "Hell no! We won't go!" long and loud. And, in fact, the president caved to the people rather than the people caving to the president.  

Edited August 13, 2015 by Luigi

[Catlick]

The more American Gutmenschen denounce the Confederate flag unisono, the more sympathy I have for the Lost Cause

Should get my hands on a Confederate flag, before it's too late