Strength and Honor

[Lil Red]

Gender roles are constructs of society put in place to control how people act and think. The ultimate goal is to be a good, loving person; the attire you choose to wear is irrelevant. A woman who wears "manly" colors and bootcut pantaloons is no less feminine than a woman who wears dresses and pumps (that ish is uncomfortable, sorry not sorry).

but a lot of women like them. I like them. I feel good in them. But I mainly agree with your post. 

I think it's interesting how he paints "critical thinking" as masculine and "emotion" as feminine. Good thing I'm not on my period or I might have to send him some scathing hate mail.

i luff you. 

[Archaeology cat]

Gender roles are constructs of society put in place to control how people act and think. The ultimate goal is to be a good, loving person; the attire you choose to wear is irrelevant. A woman who wears "manly" colors and bootcut pantaloons is no less feminine than a woman who wears dresses and pumps (that ish is uncomfortable, sorry not sorry). Likewise a man who enjoys the arts or non physically demanding roles is not the product of "wussification" as well as a woman who wants to work construction or get her hands dirty is not a butch. Supporting such things is an extreme detriment to the vast diversity of thought and personality that is all humans.

I think Voris should stay away from PM.

Yeah, you should read about the early female archaeologists and the stuff they had to deal with. And yes, heels are uncomfortable, in my opinion (especially with my knee issues). Of course, heels were also more for men originally, weren't they?  

speaking of 2000 years ago . . .

In every piece of art I've seen women and men in the time of Christ, and for centuries afterwards, seemed to be wearing the same tunic-type thingy-ma-bobbers. It seems to me there was more distinctions in dress between your social class than there were between the sexes. I'll welcome any fashion historians to correct me if I'm wrong, but if I am wrong you should probably tell about every single artist who paints or sculpts Mary/Joseph/Jesus etc because they all look like they're wearing the same thing to me.

I tend to think these matters are trifling.

I'm not as familiar with differences in near eastern dress. Definite differences in ancient Egypt and Minoans, Greeks, and Romans (even if just length of tunic). People here definitely wouldn't wear Egyptian or Minoan clothing.  

[CatherineM]

Yeah, you should read about the early female archaeologists and the stuff they had to deal with. And yes, heels are uncomfortable, in my opinion (especially with my knee issues). Of course, heels were also more for men originally, weren't they?  

I'm not as familiar with differences in near eastern dress. Definite differences in ancient Egypt and Minoans, Greeks, and Romans (even if just length of tunic). People here definitely wouldn't wear Egyptian or Minoan clothing.  

I remember Agatha Christie gave an interview about clothing on archeological digs.  I suspect she wore what she bloody well pleased.

[Archaeology cat]

I remember Agatha Christie gave an interview about clothing on archeological digs.  I suspect she wore what she bloody well pleased.

One more reason to love her. 

[Maggyie]

The focus on externals (growing a beard, wearing manly clothing) is actually very effeminate. So often these initiatives involve teaching men old timey things like using a fountain pen or carrying a pocket knife. Like that's what made a man, a man back in the day. 

It's unfortunate because the data suggests men are very alienated in the church and marginalized in important ways in society. Shorter life spans, higher suicide rates, more likely to be homeless, less access to education, massively higher rates of incarceration, far more likely to have untreated trauma from sexual violence.

I remember reading one researcher who speculated the reason the VA system is so consistently a disaster and never fixed is because it serves a primary male population who have internalized that it is unmanly to complain or organize for themselves effectively. A man is supposed to sit there and take it.

The response of most groups is to tell men they need to make sure to wear only certain kinds of clothes, use a straight razor if they shave at all, and go camping a lot. This will awaken the inner man and solve the crisis of masculinity. Unfortunately Voris seems to be in this category a bit. Errrr.

I always smile a little though because so many women find the whole idea of a "man project" very threatening and get very defensive. Or they tell guys "your problems are because of the patriarchy, the best way to fix them is with feminism, now give me your resources for this Take Back the Night project I'm working on." Noooope.

[PhuturePriest]

Wussification of men? Really?

Voting down on my post? Really? There are many posts I disagree with, but personally I think voting down on posts is rather petty. 

Question: if you don't like Michael Voris or the Vortex, why watch the video and then complain about it? Wouldn't it be a better use of your time to just skip it and go on with your life rather than causing drama over it?

This is why Phatmass can't have nice things. The drama is slowly killing Phatmass, and it's why we never have new members who last more than a month. 

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

phuture priest looks like the voris guy would have looked like when he was younger, handsome young man not girly at all, look what he will turn into, a real true man. Remembering i rarely use sarcasm and mockery, i think it is vain and un called for, so to make it as clear as a bell i am not using sarcasm or mockery to make a funny.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Michael Voris sounds like he is a Neo Catechumin.

[truthfinder]

I think it might be useful to distinguish between feminine and emasculated.  It's fine for men to cultivate so-called feminine virtues, but when any of the virtues, masculine or feminine are misapplied, this becomes spiritual/mental emasculation.  

[SaintOfVirtue]

As a man, I find Michael Voris to be a windbag with a poor taste of fashion.  My grandma's sofa covers are quite fashionable.

Edited July 19, 2015 by SaintOfVirtue

[Nihil Obstat]

 

I think it might be useful to distinguish between feminine and emasculated.  It's fine for men to cultivate so-called feminine virtues, but when any of the virtues, masculine or feminine are misapplied, this becomes spiritual/mental emasculation.  

You rock.

[Ash Wednesday]

I think it might be useful to distinguish between feminine and emasculated.  It's fine for men to cultivate so-called feminine virtues, but when any of the virtues, masculine or feminine are misapplied, this becomes spiritual/mental emasculation.  

Thank you. Like I said, wording is key when discussing things like this and that is a good way of putting it without making it sound so insulting to women.

I'm the first to admit that topics like this can be a bit of a touchy issue for me because I grew up in a house of men and was constantly teased and put down for being a woman, and on a daily basis I lived with the overall message that anything womanly was somehow inferior. I guess we all have our topics that can cause sore nerves here and there, hence mine.

[CrossCuT]

 

I am going to ask you a very difficult question for liberal feminists.  Think through your answer carefully. If you think the answer to this question is easy, you are a faux feminist. 

Being a woman, according to you, is not about whether a person wears a dress or likes the color pink. It is not about a preference for dolls over trucks, or being quiet instead of loud. It is not about being more emotional or nurturing. It is not about putting on makeup, having long hair, or walking in high heels. Further, it is not about being interested in a job in a traditionally female dominated field. And vice versa, being a man is not about having more rational reasoning habits of mind, or liking blue, or playing cowboys and indians, etc.

What then can liberal feminists have to say about transgendered people? Hmmmm? Accepting all the above as true, what can liberal feminists say but that transgender identity is  a mental disease, a psychological problem produced by internalization of the patriarchy?

 

I feel like you basically answered your own question here, but I do think this is an extremely important question. "What can a liberal feminist say but that transgender identity is a mental disease"?

 

My answer is pretty simple, but let me preface that I understand that you, Voris, and maybe others in this thread view the world with a specific frame of mind; people have to fit into designated molds. Women have to fit into the woman category and men have to fit into the man category. If individuals deviate even a little, there is something wrong with them and we put them into other categories like butch, gay, qwerty, wussies, tomboys, disordered etc. And in some ways, I do understand that the Catholic Church (big C) has to treat it this way. They NEED to have categories in order to sort through what is and isnt acceptable. They need to define what a real woman is in order to show us what to aspire to likewise with men. And we all have these categories, but some pools of thought are much broader than others...I just happen to completely disagree with this although I dont think their view is NEARLY as rigid as Voris is making it out to be.

My answer really is just that I dont think we know everything there is to know. To form concrete identity groups to sort people into based on our limited knowledge of the world is a huge detriment to progress and forward thinking. We are on the cusp of something new and Im willing keep an open mind to learning more about human sexuality than what we currently have discovered. 

We cant put individuals into rigid categories....it just doenst work; people are far too diverse and complex to be boiled down to frou frou girls and lumberjack men. Im not a fan of any of that and Im a huge advocate of the gender non conforming approach to life as it opens up and releases soooo many people from the chains of stereotypes. What makes a Trans person a woman or man by my libby Feminist standards? I dont know. But I am open to the fact that there is more to the picture and I will support their new identity as a woman or man just as I would support a woman or man who wanted to maintain their identity in any way they choose.

 

I know this will be unacceptable to you because you are looking for an answer that you can sort into a category. You can go ahead and sort me into the bad feminists category though. But seriously, its a good question! I actually brought it up with my fiance because I wasnt sure how to answer. It was a good food for thought sort of thing and we had a good discussion about it.

Would you like to join me in a koombaya dance?

[Basilisa Marie]

I couldn't care less what a guy wears if every morning he prays "Serviam!" 

 

 

[CrossCuT]

Voting down on my post? Really? There are many posts I disagree with, but personally I think voting down on posts is rather petty. 

Question: if you don't like Michael Voris or the Vortex, why watch the video and then complain about it? Wouldn't it be a better use of your time to just skip it and go on with your life rather than causing drama over it?

This is why Phatmass can't have nice things. The drama is slowly killing Phatmass, and it's why we never have new members who last more than a month. 

i comment because this vendetta against men is deteimental to all those who arent lumberjack bobs. And are you guys really basing all of this on a fashion show? Because fashion shows depict real life? And if this is all about the superficial aspect of clothes and if the clothes we wear represent some illustrious aspect of our spiritual identity, would it be a sin  for a man or woman to dress outside their  stereotypes? And even further, if you dont wear your best clothes all the time?

would it be a venial sin for a guyto wear yellow but a mortal sin to wear pink? Should the church come out with a gender dress code? "Thou shalt not wear floral prints lest you be tempted by the hell bringer to become too sensitive!"

Could you imagine any way this could be detrimental to guys who do not identify in the way you suggest? Are those men weak in your opinion? And do you equate that weakness or loss of "masculinity" to be adopting feminine attributes? 

Edited July 20, 2015 by CrossCuT