Should Catholics Get Tattooed?

[Seven77]

all the quotes I read like this seemed to only be speaking of jewellery or nice clothes rather than makeup. For example St Thomas says a woman CAN adorn herself for her husband but then in another part says even married women shouldn't wear makeup. So by adornment I think he means jewellery. He was pretty strict with makeup and the question he deals with is if its mortal or venial - not whether its OK or not. In the best cases he seemed to imply its venial. The only thing he gave as an excuse where its OK to do is to cover up some disfigurement. Intent DOES matter here which is why it can be a very slight thing at times - but I think its good to aim at perfection if its venial that's still serious. If its an imperfection best to get rid of it. 

Not to get all up in your business or anything like that but what does your spiritual director say about this? I think that this may be a matter to discuss with a spiritual director... and follow this person's advice, because this is the way that Christ sometimes speaks to us.  Also, have you asked St. Thomas Aquinas about it?

[MarysLittleFlower]

Some thoughts only. In the end isn't anything not for God vanity?  He wants all our attention, every thought and action. That's how total His love is. If an action is not to please Him - its imperfect even if its not some big sin. It can also lead to bigger sin and lots of attachment. This is something I struggle with every day. Many things I do are still for myself. Makeup definitely was. But if we are serious in becoming saints let's do everything only for His love!  Holiness is in His Will alone not ours even in the tiny details.

I'm not judging anyone here - it applies to me just as much, I fail maybe more than others, but I mean it as an encouragement not a judgement - its beautiful to only live for Jesus and I have to learn this as much or more than others.

Makeup was something I did to feel better about myself because I had little gratitude for how God made me. I wanted to fix things I didn't like instead of seeing through His eyes or using them to learn detachment. I was painting over the eyes He gave me so others would like me more or be more impressed; so I'd fit in. What about Jesus? How did He feel seeing my ingratitude for a face He made? 

That was not something holy to do. Now I have to work on all the other things I do that are not holy andtheyre a big number  so I understand no one is obligated to listen to me and who am I to teach? 

Ifpeople disagree I understand because I have no authority to teach anyone here. I just mean it as an encouragement. I know it can be a big sacrifice for women especially today when its so common. I struggled for a while feeling very ugly when I stopped wearing it.  I felt different at work cause I didn't look as polished as others. But I think that's only by comparison. If I found myself in an age where ordinary women didn't wear makeup I'd look the same. So what I do is I just make sure I'm dressed nearly and my hair is done neatly.. It was sometimes a sacrifice to be content with that but now I'm so used to it I don't notice. It only seems scary at first  

I'm just saying all this if someone wants to give it up but is worried. That was a big issue for me. But really I think people are beautiful with the natural God-given look and any imperfections can be for humility or to avoid vanity. Even imperfections are a gift from God to keep the soul beautiful. 

If I wear makeup in that case that's missing out on that opportunity to learn humility , detachment and gratitude for what I have. I feel more peace without makeup now and I save tons of time and money too  that's my story lol. 

Somehow this thread got derailed - my fault cause I mentioned makeup - lets get back to discussing tattoos and I won't post on this anymore  

Edited August 2, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[Ice_nine]

Looks like you get your information from the Church's enemies... That the early Church Fathers debated over whether women have souls, is a complete lie: http://www.churchinhistory.org/pages/booklets/women-souls-1.htm

OK, I was WRONG. D': My world is OVER.

I'm actually glad that's not true, but I'm definitely right about the St. Thomas thing. So I can salvage something.

[Nunsense]

Maybe ALL Catholics should be tattooed - with the words: "Make-up is bad" ?? 

 

 

[MarysLittleFlower]

And if we're talking about the body as a temple - let's consider one of the most beautiful Christian 'temples' of all time - and how Michelangelo 'adorned' it with his 'tattoo' - the Sistine Chapel!  

Sure,some people are offended by tattoos but then different people are offended by different things. It is certainly respectful to cover up tattoos where necessary and appropriate depending on time, place and circumstance, but then could be said of quite a few things. One wouldn't wear a swimsuit in a formal environment and sometimes language needs to be more formal depending on the situation. It all comes back down to common sense. 

As for trusting our relationship with Jesus to make our choices - that's a good one and I agree with it 100%. But your relationship with Jesus is not my relationship with Jesus, nor is it anyone else's. So if I feel that wearing makeup can be appropriate in certain circumstances, I am not going to get all scrupulous about what some saint said hundreds of years ago. MLF, it sounds like you had a problem with makeup and vanity (from what you write), so sure, maybe you shouldn't wear it ever - but that's like telling everyone they can't drink simply because you are an alcoholic, or telling everyone they shouldn't watch TV, because you get addicted to it and don't get anything productive done. A lot of us can do things in moderation and with common sense applied.

Time, place and situation - and Jesus is fine with it - as far as my own private and personal revelations go!  But then I have quite a few years under my belt so maybe I don't take things quite as seriously as some other people do. All I know is that God and I are ok.

 

 

Certainly there are things I felt Jesus wanted for me and me specifically. I don't talkabout those things much or at all. Iwondered if its the same with makeup but then Ifound those quotes. My idea maybeis that the purpose of the existence of makeup is not like purpose of other stuff. Is itfundamentally flawed? I gave reasons I thought about in my post just above this one.

Jewellery doesn't change the actual features and intent determines if its vain. Intent matters in makeup but I wonder if as an invention its flawed. Thatwould mean intentions may excuse someone from terrible vanity in the heart but wouldnt excuse makeup itself. I also notice lots of hidden vanity in me in little things i make excuses for.

My reasons about disagreeing with makeup itself are given above - I don't know but its just what I felt in my heart. No one is obligated to listen to me clearly.I take the Saints more serious. But just for further thought I shared them  

Not to get all up in your business or anything like that but what does your spiritual director say about this? I think that this may be a matter to discuss with a spiritual director... and follow this person's advice, because this is the way that Christ sometimes speaks to us.  Also, have you asked St. Thomas Aquinas about it?

im unsure what you mean because I just described basically what we already have from St Thomas in the Summa. This isn't a revelation to me from St Thomas

my SD said its not always a serious sin because a person may have varying levels of vanity but St Thomas said that too and I agree. I am not saying its always a mortal sin. It doesn't mean its a perfection or great thing! As for my journey, I tell my SD these things too. 

[Ice_nine]

I know this is sort of drifting off topic . . . before I came to phatmass I never cared or really worried much about my appearance nor cared about anyone else's (unless it's really egregious), nothing of the sort "distracted" me. Now almost every time I walk into a church what everyone is wearing is a major distraction. I've really internalized it because I'm like, you know what? I don't have enough anxiety in my life so let's just pile this on for added fun! Thanks internet

So now I've learned a few things over the years. Feel free to add:

1. You should dress up for mass or else you love the president more than Jesus

2. But don't dress up too nicely, you'll tempt the men

3 You should wear a dress or skirt, but just don't show any knees or shoulders or . . . any joint for that matter unless you want to look like a whore.

4. Don't wear make-up.

5. Make sure your face isn't too ugly or you'll look like a slob, so maybe just a little bit of make-up

6. If you show your collarbone the wrath of God shall visit you

7. Don't wear anything to draw attention to yourself, but if everyone is whoring it up in their jeans and t-shirts it's OK to be a total anachronism and dress like you're from the 1950's. They obviously don't love Jesus as much as you.

8. Don't dress like you're poor (although this is never said, more so implied), and if you are actually poor and can't scrape up enough money for one nice outfit well, where are your priorities?! If you're not poor, you don't want people to THINK you're poor right? ew!

9. Wear a headcovering.

10. Don't wear a headcovering you will look weird.

 

And then of course, we're told not to be vain and obsess about our looks lolololol cause that's a sin too. My Lord, a girl can't win here!

 

[Seven77]

My reasons about disagreeing with makeup itself are given above - I don't know but its just what I felt in my heart. No one is obligated to listen to me clearly.I take the Saints more serious. But just for further thought I shared them  

 Personally, if I had a wife, I would want her to wear make up and I would understand it as an act of love for God. For her sake, I would be offended if someone told her that they take the Saints more seriously, and that they implied that makeup can never be applied for love of God but at best is an imperfection. Again,  as it has been said already, what is good for the goose is not necessarily good for the gander, etc.

[MarysLittleFlower]

Unsure how st thomas can put jewelry and make up in a separate basket, if he did? Make ups a funny thing because i guess if the world is in a fallen state than perhaps we do not look how God intended us to, particularly after the point where we choose to sin with full knowledge and consent and still to a degree without knowledge and consent sin effects not only our emotional, mental and spiritual state of life but also our physical perhaps, and light make up may not actually be vain but just magnifying and repairing that which is supposed to be, of course if one goes overboard it can be some kind of self hate thing which is not good, although i am not promoting pride of self. Not saying my synopsis is correct but just another possible view point, and of course not all have to eat apples although apples are good in the sense that even where make up a good and wholesome thing not all are bound to where it, as not all are bound or have the ability for whatever reason to do the rosary daily and some cant do lengthy novenas and only can manage the very basics without fault, sorry not meaning to compare make up to a novena but if done correctly in the light of christ i guess just about anything can be made holy, like having your car, house blessed once a year. I guess one could get there make up blessed after wearing in the hope that there make up may attract a soul for Christ to be evangelized.

Unsure how st thomas can put jewelry and make up in a separate basket, if he did? Make ups a funny thing because i guess if the world is in a fallen state than perhaps we do not look how God intended us to, particularly after the point where we choose to sin with full knowledge and consent and still to a degree without knowledge and consent sin effects not only our emotional, mental and spiritual state of life but also our physical perhaps, and light make up may not actually be vain but just magnifying and repairing that which is supposed to be, of course if one goes overboard it can be some kind of self hate thing which is not good, although i am not promoting pride of self. Not saying my synopsis is correct but just another possible view point, and of course not all have to eat apples although apples are good in the sense that even where make up a good and wholesome thing not all are bound to where it, as not all are bound or have the ability for whatever reason to do the rosary daily and some cant do lengthy novenas and only can manage the very basics without fault, sorry not meaning to compare make up to a novena but if done correctly in the light of christ i guess just about anything can be made holy, like having your car, house blessed once a year. I guess one could get there make up blessed after wearing in the hope that there make up may attract a soul for Christ to be evangelized.

The fall affected our appearance but we can bear with that to learn virtue. the features God gave me are still mine. In the Resurrection we would be perfected but in a true way not a fashion way where people need outlined eyes. It would be a spiritual holy beauty though the body would be perfect     

[Nunsense]

Certainly there are things I felt Jesus wanted for me and me specifically. I don't talkabout those things much or at all. Iwondered if its the same with makeup but then Ifound those quotes. My idea maybeis that the purpose of the existence of makeup is not like purpose of other stuff. Is itfundamentally flawed? I gave reasons I thought about in my post just above this one.

Jewellery doesn't change the actual features and intent determines if its vain. Intent matters in makeup but I wonder if as an invention its flawed. Thatwould mean intentions may excuse someone from terrible vanity in the heart but wouldnt excuse makeup itself. I also notice lots of hidden vanity in me in little things i make excuses for.

My reasons about disagreeing with makeup itself are given above - I don't know but its just what I felt in my heart. No one is obligated to listen to me clearly.I take the Saints more serious. But just for further thought I shared them  

Make up has been around for a very long time, and over the centuries attitudes have been very hostile to it - "painted women". But women wearing slacks has also been a source of scandal - almost blasphemous. The thing is that in our society and culture (Western especially), a person is not considered well groomed unless they at least have a modicum of make-up. There is a big difference between the way make-up is applied for the stage, for a woman who is selling sexual favours, for a woman who is a Mum (if she has time or energy to apply any) and for a woman who works in the corporate world. Wearing some make-up is considered well-groomed.

I think if you want to carry your non-vanity ideal to extremes, then you shouldn't be shaving your arm pits or legs, or wearing deodorant or even grooming yourself at all - just let it be as God has made you - no vanity at all. After all, didn't He create you perfectly?

What I see here is a case of scruples about appearance. But no one can be totally oblivious to how they look because we are not unconscious creatures. The way to give glory to God is not to obsess in either direction - too much or too little of a focus on appearance. Take note, be well dressed and well groomed as appropriate according to the time, place and situation, and then stop thinking about it. You probably obsess more about NOT wearing make-up than I do about the times I do wear make-up. And having been a nun several times, I have no attachment to wearing it or not (I was a Carmelite and we didn't even have mirrors in the convent) but I am aware that there are times for me when it is appropriate to wear a little. 

If vanity is such a worry to you, maybe take all your mirrors away, like they do in Carmel. I can live with or without them now, but I use them to make myself look appropriate for the situation and then forget about it. Vanity doesn't lie in the make-up, but in the heart.

Edited August 2, 2015 by nunsense

[MarysLittleFlower]

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/cw/post.php?id=737 

 

I like this article - and this quote...

“And when you fast, do not look gloomy like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, that your fasting may not be seen by others but by your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.”

And I especially like her conclusion at the end...

And so I come to a close on an article I shouldn’t have had to write in the first place. The idea that something like make-up, which not only encourages daily habits in personal care but could also potentially help our physical appearance in matters of evangelization, be anything like the commenter implies is, frankly, just silly. And it points to the greater point that we tend, even with the best of intentions, to assume insecurities and faults in others that aren’t there to begin with. Perhaps it is a great reminder that we must simply worry about our own journeys and less about what I assume to be God’s judgment on another.

 

 

I don'tunderstand how the passage applies because in not wearing makeup I'm not disfiguring ourselves to look gloomy. We just look natural. We can smile personal habits can be formed inother ways... As for evangelization I think a holy life is enough and the Saints didnt look fashionable but helped many convert I believe we can look presentable without makeup.. We can just look neat clean and normal. 

 

[Not The Philosopher]

Next question: Catholic men growing beards - is it a vanity that should be discouraged? 

[MarysLittleFlower]

Unsure anyone should be scandalized by others wearing make up though, that could actually be a kind of scruples, but i guess the same as tatts, dont hang out with someone that is scandalized by make up wearing make up. idk. Don't offer someone that doesn't like to eat meat meat, definitely. And perhaps don't eat meat around them, i'm unsure where the line is in all of this but we must respect others right to like or dislike something and try our best in st pauls words to become all things to all people.

others wearing makeup doesn't make me lose my peace.or tempted to wear it. I just don't wear it. Just speaking for myself  people are different. 

[Seven77]

Next question: Catholic men growing beards - is it a vanity that should be discouraged? 

Nah, the real question is, Catholic men who shave-- is it a vanity that should be discouraged?

[MarysLittleFlower]

I know this is sort of drifting off topic . . . before I came to phatmass I never cared or really worried much about my appearance nor cared about anyone else's (unless it's really egregious), nothing of the sort "distracted" me. Now almost every time I walk into a church what everyone is wearing is a major distraction. I've really internalized it because I'm like, you know what? I don't have enough anxiety in my life so let's just pile this on for added fun! Thanks internet

So now I've learned a few things over the years. Feel free to add:

1. You should dress up for mass or else you love the president more than Jesus

2. But don't dress up too nicely, you'll tempt the men

3 You should wear a dress or skirt, but just don't show any knees or shoulders or . . . any joint for that matter unless you want to look like a whore.

4. Don't wear make-up.

5. Make sure your face isn't too ugly or you'll look like a slob, so maybe just a little bit of make-up

6. If you show your collarbone the wrath of God shall visit you

7. Don't wear anything to draw attention to yourself, but if everyone is whoring it up in their jeans and t-shirts it's OK to be a total anachronism and dress like you're from the 1950's. They obviously don't love Jesus as much as you.

8. Don't dress like you're poor (although this is never said, more so implied), and if you are actually poor and can't scrape up enough money for one nice outfit well, where are your priorities?! If you're not poor, you don't want people to THINK you're poor right? ew!

9. Wear a headcovering.

10. Don't wear a headcovering you will look weird.

 

And then of course, we're told not to be vain and obsess about our looks lolololol cause that's a sin too. My Lord, a girl can't win here!

 

I think we can care about these things for ourselves and seek God's will in them but  just resist any judgemental feelings to others. I don't think it means those topics mean nothing. (Like how to dress or act). We can just combine it with charity in the will even if temptations come. I mean if its judgingthoughts - we can still consider the objective topics.

An analogy:

Before I wasCatholic I barely noticed sins and imperfections. Now I notice them. Does that mean they're not important or I shouldn't be Catholic? Not at all. I just need to focus on my relationshp with God and fight any uncharitable thoughts about others. I can excuse their hearts and not judge intentions but still care about the topics.

Maybe ALL Catholics should be tattooed - with the words: "Make-up is bad" ?? 

 

 

Lol  

 Personally, if I had a wife, I would want her to wear make up and I would understand it as an act of love for God. For her sake, I would be offended if someone told her that they take the Saints more seriously, and that they implied that makeup can never be applied for love of God but at best is an imperfection. Again,  as it has been said already, what is good for the goose is not necessarily good for the gander, etc.

If I had a husband I'd actually feel hurt if he thought I should wear makeup. That's like saying "I don't think you're beautiful enough for me as you are". Jewellery doesn't change the features.. But makeup does.  

Make up has been around for a very long time, and over the centuries attitudes have been very hostile to it - "painted women". But women wearing slacks has also been a source of scandal - almost blasphemous. The thing is that in our society and culture (Western especially), a person is not considered well groomed unless they at least have a modicum of make-up. There is a big difference between the way make-up is applied for the stage, for a woman who is selling sexual favours, for a woman who is a Mum (if she has time or energy to apply any) and for a woman who works in the corporate world. Wearing some make-up is considered well-groomed.

I think if you want to carry your non-vanity ideal to extremes, then you shouldn't be shaving your arm pits or legs, or wearing deodorant or even grooming yourself at all - just let it be as God has made you - no vanity at all. After all, didn't He create you perfectly?

What I see here is a case of scruples about appearance. But no one can be totally oblivious to how they look because we are not unconscious creatures. The way to give glory to God is not to obsess in either direction - too much or too little of a focus on appearance. Take note, be well dressed and well groomed as appropriate according to the time, place and situation, and then stop thinking about it. You probably obsess more about NOT wearing make-up than I do about the times I do wear make-up. And having been a nun several times, I have no attachment to wearing it or not (I was a Carmelite and we didn't even have mirrors in the convent) but I am aware that there are times for me when it is appropriate to wear a little. 

If vanity is such a worry to you, maybe take all your mirrors away, like they do in Carmel. I can live with or without them now, but I use them to make myself look appropriate for the situation and then forget about it. Vanity doesn't lie in the make-up, but in the heart.

it would be disobedient for me in my intent to wear makeup after I felt I shouldn't. Actually all I do is to be clean and neat looking. I don't do the fashion stuff. To me grooming is just looking neat. so brushing teeth using deodorant brushing and arranging hair. Many things in our society seem superfluous to me. Maybe I don't look as impressive as others but I'm OK with that I just try to look well ordered and neat. I don't think much about appearance now beyond making sure I'm neat and modest - unless I get distracted by the culture. That's just me. I don't obsess about wearing makeup anymore because I have accepted my natural look over time - it was only a struggle in the beginning  

Oh well I think I've said all I have to say on the topic and otherwise I'd just be going around in circles I see my view is the unpopular minority, lol that's OK though. God bless you all  

[Seven77]

 

If I had a husband I'd actually feel hurt if he thought I should wear makeup. That's like saying "I don't think you're beautiful enough for me as you are". Jewellery doesn't change the features.. But makeup does.  

 

No, not my wife though, she would understand my statement in its proper context, and she would know that I think that she is beautiful inside and out, with makeup or without.

  Doesn't makeup enhance features? How can it change them, like physically alter them? Wow… there are so many things I have yet to learn about these mysterious creatures.

[Nihil Obstat]

It is far simpler than some people want to make it. Dress well, dress modestly. Do not be a slob, do not be vain, and think about other people. Everything to glorify Christ first, then to help each other.
Edit: And if one feels called to go above and beyond, by all means.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Nihil Obstat

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Jewelry does change the appearance especially in excess. What if fashion,make up and jewlary can be used to love others? In the sense of making oneself more appealing and allowing a greater ease of comfort for another person to be around therefore opening up the gates to revealing the truth in our action and words. And totally not conforming to society, that would be a selfish act to fit in, this is a totally different concept of selflessness. Cloud nine helping you feel fine, coz i love you kind of thing.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[Nihil Obstat]

This, for example, is incorrect:

Xerxes would have been rather a bad Catholic.

[MarysLittleFlower]

No, not my wife though, she would understand my statement in its proper context, and she would know that I think that she is beautiful inside and out, with makeup or without.

  Doesn't makeup enhance features? How can it change them, like physically alter them? Wow… there are so many things I have yet to learn about these mysterious creatures.

I think it does sort of change them.. People don't come with black lines around the eyes and eye shadow  people look quite different with eye makeup particularly. You can tell its the same person but still different. 

If the wife didn't wear makeup would you tell her she should? I think many women would find that hurtful though - if they don't wear makeup at all or on a particular day and their husband suggests it?

 

Edited August 2, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[Not The Philosopher]

This, for example, is incorrect:

Xerxes would have been rather a bad Catholic.

He's probably not getting that job at Wal-Mart either.