Should Catholics Get Tattooed?

[MarysLittleFlower]

Sorry for the monster thread lol.

I guess I just agree with the Saints who wrote on the topic. Clearly I'm in a minority but I don't think its a heresy to think so. I'll check with my SD. So moving on  

[julianneoflongbeach]

Sorry for the monster thread lol.

I guess I just agree with the Saints who wrote on the topic. Clearly I'm in a minority but I don't think its a heresy to think so. I'll check with my SD. So moving on  

What you think is just fine. I don't wear makeup either, but I've also just never really liked it. I've liked the idea of it, enough to buy lots of nice stuff, but I'd use it once then decide I hated how it felt and never use it again. lol I still keep some on hand for special occasions where it would be odd to not be a bit more done up. I don't think it's intrinsically wrong or unnatural. Nudists use just about the same arguments you've used after all...Saints are not infallible and have gone overboard on things or have just been wrong. But it's as different from being tattooed as it is from wearing jewelry or dying your hair. So how would you translate such misgivings to tattoos? Are tattoos or dying your hair or having piercings inherently vain? Is it regulated merely by intention or culture or is there a definite line beyond which you shouldn't go? And can the same be said for modesty in general? Oy, the thoughts. They are too many.

[MarysLittleFlower]

Hmm I'm kind of confused because to me my argument makes sense but to no one else lol. Im afraid if I'm wrong. But its not like the nudist argument of "just being as you are". We take care of the body and we also need clothes for modesty. But my argument is basically that it just seems wrong to me to paint over how God made me *to look prettier*, it feels like I'm insulting Him in some way. Its like I'm one thing but look like another, like I'm lying. It feels just wrong.

So I don't know if I'm incorrect or not thinking makeup is objectively flawed in its purpose - even though intent regulates culpability. Clothes and jewellery adorn the body but they don't change it.. Also the primary purpose of clothes is not vanity and jewellery can be worn to please a spouse. I've read from St Thomas its wrong for someone to adorn themselves if they don't plan to marry though like a consecrated soul or seriously discerning. I mean adornment not just regular accessories for practicality.

Anyway with tattoos and piercings and dyeing hair I think its extremely easy to have a vain reason and difficult to have another one. I mean for most people tattoos are self expression which isn't a sufficiently high reason IMO. The other stuff like dyeing hair I just don't get why to do it. (With grey hair personally I'd just like to accept it as a cross, myself).

Anyway that's me with my typically extreme views. That's my personality: all or nothing. I know Saints can make mistakes but the fact that some said this it made me think maybe its not that extreme. I think grooming stuff is different - we're not animals and even animals groom.

I am not commenting on.the presence or absence of culpability in people who do these things and I tend to try and excuse people if I disagree with something myself. Even if its wrong sin needs the will, delight in it, some sort of knowledge etc..

But I just asked one day - what is the most perfect way I can imagine? And am I ever far from that ideal but I thought - what's the point of something if its not done for love of God? I still do much for self rather than His love alone. If I did that I'd be a saint perhaps and I'm not. But I can't make sense of another way to live, and for me I can't figure out how to dye my hair without a vain intent since its not necessary for neatness and presentability. It just seems pointless... 

However I don't believe modesty is regulated by culture because a Pope last century said modesty should be based on a virtuous society not one where such values are scorned. -- very loose paraphrase. I think.people today are desensitized to immodesty so things look OK that aren't OK. Yup another extreme probably unpopular view from MLF haha...  but seriously if a society is desensitised that doesn't excuse its errors. (Individual people vary in knowledge and ignorance though and so in culpability). I just can't reason my way out of it so that's what I believe. 

At best, some stuff is just pointless and not for God. At worst, it could be wrong. I can leave that part up to God though some stuff seems wrong to me. But even if its just pointless: then its still a waste of time. We were put here to become saints.  

[MarysLittleFlower]

I don't at all think you asked the question in this way but sometimes people ask questions about these topics that may sound like "what is the most I can get away with without committing a sin". But we can ask - what is the most perfect thing to do. Its a lifelong journey to live like that. I am not there yet and we must be patient with ourselves and others. But I think the best thing to do is ONLY seek God's Will and His satisfaction. And simply eliminate all else bit by bit. We can debate for ten years about whether its a sin and lose ten years. Is it something for God? Is a better question, with no worries, no scruples and no atrachment. If the answer is "no" then no need to even consider it further I think the Saints applied it to everything. Most of my day is still for me so I'm not there yet. But I think its all about the details. We give God each detail and then they add up! So I know for me, dyeing hair and wearing makeup would just be a diversion and a temptation to worry about my looks, so best to not bother.  

Edited August 3, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[Gabriela]

Brother Andre, tattoo artist-turned Benedictine monk-iconographer: http://www.statesmanjournal.com/story/life/2014/11/07/mount-angel-abbey-art-museum-brother-andre-love-iconography-icons-benedictine-tattoo/18602733/ 

[Nunsense]

I'm out of this thread because...

 

 

Edited August 3, 2015 by nunsense

[franciscanheart]

If ever I were to get a tattoo, I would do exactly this, or with a St. Benedict medal.

The eastern Christians you are thinking of are the Copts.

Those people need to find a better tattoo artist.

 Personally, if I had a wife, I would want her to wear make up and I would understand it as an act of love for God. For her sake, I would be offended if someone told her that they take the Saints more seriously, and that they implied that makeup can never be applied for love of God but at best is an imperfection. Again,  as it has been said already, what is good for the goose is not necessarily good for the gander, etc.

I hope you would also wear makeup since you think she should...

 

 

I have six tattoos and a nose piercing. Am I less Catholic? [shrug] I know plenty of religious with tattoos...

[Seven77]

I hope you would also wear makeup since you think she should...

If she wanted me to...

[Sister Marie]

Sorry for the monster thread lol.

I guess I just agree with the Saints who wrote on the topic. Clearly I'm in a minority but I don't think its a heresy to think so. I'll check with my SD. So moving on  

Everyone else doesn't disagree with the saints just because they disagree with you.  It's just that everyone else here knows that the saints lived in different times... We can't be Saint Thomas, Saint Therese, Saint Bernadette, etc... Because we aren't them... You can only be Saint MLF one day and you do that by being who God created you to be not by imitating others.  I'm trying to be Saint Marie one day but I'm not going to be able to do it by imitating someone who lived without electricity, mirrors, or basic health care and hygiene products.  The lives of the saints should inspire us, show us their particular way of being holy, and bring wisdom but they aren't supposed to be literal instruction manuals.  You apply what is helpful... And what's helpful isn't going to be the same for MLF as it is for every individual.  Now the Gospel is what we should be worried about living!  As far as I know Jesus seemed to care far more about other things.

 I'm sure Saint Therese never wore hairspray but I do because I'm a professional, not Einstein, and I need to look like one.  

I was thinking... What about braces?  Are they allowed?  They change appearance and make people more attractive.  I do know a lot of religious who have tattoos too.  The only trouble they can be is if they are visible and the religious works in some professional field.  

[Guest]

Everyone else doesn't disagree with the saints just because they disagree with you.  It's just that everyone else here knows that the saints lived in different times... We can't be Saint Thomas, Saint Therese, Saint Bernadette, etc... Because we aren't them... You can only be Saint MLF one day and you do that by being who God created you to be not by imitating others.  I'm trying to be Saint Marie one day but I'm not going to be able to do it by imitating someone who lived without electricity, mirrors, or basic health care and hygiene products.  The lives of the saints should inspire us, show us their particular way of being holy, and bring wisdom but they aren't supposed to be literal instruction manuals.  You apply what is helpful... And what's helpful isn't going to be the same for MLF as it is for every individual.  Now the Gospel is what we should be worried about living!  As far as I know Jesus seemed to care far more about other things.

 I'm sure Saint Therese never wore hairspray but I do because I'm a professional, not Einstein, and I need to look like one.  

I was thinking... What about braces?  Are they allowed?  They change appearance and make people more attractive.  I do know a lot of religious who have tattoos too.  The only trouble they can be is if they are visible and the religious works in some professional field.  

A million props. Great post.

[MarysLittleFlower]

Everyone else doesn't disagree with the saints just because they disagree with you.  It's just that everyone else here knows that the saints lived in different times... We can't be Saint Thomas, Saint Therese, Saint Bernadette, etc... Because we aren't them... You can only be Saint MLF one day and you do that by being who God created you to be not by imitating others.  I'm trying to be Saint Marie one day but I'm not going to be able to do it by imitating someone who lived without electricity, mirrors, or basic health care and hygiene products.  The lives of the saints should inspire us, show us their particular way of being holy, and bring wisdom but they aren't supposed to be literal instruction manuals.  You apply what is helpful... And what's helpful isn't going to be the same for MLF as it is for every individual.  Now the Gospel is what we should be worried about living!  As far as I know Jesus seemed to care far more about other things.

 I'm sure Saint Therese never wore hairspray but I do because I'm a professional, not Einstein, and I need to look like one.  

I was thinking... What about braces?  Are they allowed?  They change appearance and make people more attractive.  I do know a lot of religious who have tattoos too.  The only trouble they can be is if they are visible and the religious works in some professional field.  

Sister Marie, I sew what you are saying but I was trying to express something else... Before I read the Saints on this I felt several times like Jesus and Mary don't want me wearing makeup. When I made my Consecration to Our Lady it was a really powerful moment for me. When i came home and started putting on eyeliner before going somewhere else, I suddenly felt very strongly like Our Lady didn't want me to because I'm changing the eyes that He gave me. That's where all this came from. I have no idea why it happened. 

I'm trying to express how this sort of thing is different from hygiene, correcting crooked teeth or treating skin problems. I felt this very strongly in my conscience a couple times but I had a hard time giving up makeup until I read what the Saints said. This has nothing to do with replicating the lifestyle of someone in history who had no electricity. Also there was makeup back then too which is why the Saints wrote about it disagreeing with it. I don't see it at all like a historical difference because makeup was in existence and it was disagreed for theological reasons not practical ones.

I'm trying to express this and its different from wearing braces and such things because wearing makeup is not to correct a problem but to artificially add attractiveness by changing features. That sets it apart from things like adornments that don't alter features (like jewellery) or things that merely arrange something for neatness like doing your hair. 

 Makeup is not worn to cover up a disfigurement in most cases but to make the eyes look bigger, the lips more red etc. The way they are naturally are not deformed like crooked teeth or messy like unbrushed hair or unhygienic. This makes makeup more vain to me. That's the difference I see between makeup and those things and why those comparisons aren't convincing to me. Neither is it trying to replicate another time, as they had makeup back then and it doesn't sound to me like the Saints had this view for a merely social historical reason.

I'm not saying either that if someone here wears makeup or has tattoos is less Catholic than me. Im also not saying they are all committing mortal sins. I never mentioned any commentary on people - only shared my view on the topic and my story. Maybe everyone disagrees but I can't change it.

I just see makeup as more inherently vain than other things and yes the intent matters and its not always with a very vain intent... But something about makeup itself seems incorrect to me when its used especially to change features. Eyeliner is not the same as covering up a skin problem as there is no problem with normal eyes. Using eyeliner could turn to the statement "the eyes as God made them are deficient, I want them to look striking and more beautiful". I think that is incorrect.  The eyes are not deficient, they are not like a medical or dental or hygeinic or neatness problem. 

Edited August 3, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[MarysLittleFlower]

To those who voted down my post without replying or saying what you disagree with: 

What part do you disagree with? That eye and lip makeup differs from fixing a deformity, since there is no deformity there? If you agree with that, what part do you disagree with, since most of my post was about that? Or do you disagree with what I said about the Saints? But they weren't against makeup as a novelty but as something they had in their society too. I don't think I said anything against theteaching of the Church. Its not like I said that its always a mortal sin despite intention. I said its not like braces or brushing hair. If I said anything against the Church then tell me. But I don't think its against the Church to think that wanting to make features more beautiful artificially can easily tempt to vanity more than hygiene medical stuff or neatness. 

[julianneoflongbeach]

We get it. I think we're all just sick of reading the same thing over and over again.

 

If there is going to be no more discussion on tattoos, can we shut this thread down?

[Seven77]

MLF, i think you mean well but the problem comes in when you present your personal conviction as a recommendation for all to follow if they are serious about sanctity---the implication is, if they choose not to follow it they do not want to be Saints.

[MarysLittleFlower]

I'm not saying they don't want to be Saints. I'm saying I see problems objectively with decorative makeup when used to change features to appear more beautiful (and that specifically). I'm not commenting on: when its what type of sin, peoples hearts, etc. If that's not your intent, ok. I'm saying that this intent seems dangerous and that it seems makeup was made with such an intent even if yours is different. So its easy to fall into that. Anyway I won't post again so the thread can return back to its original purpose. Sorry that I derailed it. 

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

In my experience of life, wearing make-up or having a tattoo hasn't led anyone I've personally met onto a slippery slope of vanity.

I know it is a problem for some people, but I suspect it can often seem more of a problem than it actually is because we hear more about celebrities nowadays than we did in the days before "selfies" and Instagram. I don't know anyone who is a celebrity and I also don't know anyone who has been made overly vain by wearing make-up.

Also, one thing that happens naturally is that most people start to be more comfortable with themselves as they get older. When I was a teenager, I thought I was ugly and was always comparing my appearance to others. Over time, most people start to realize that other people aren't examining their looks that closely, and become less self-conscious.

Actually, I see a greater danger in being overly concerned, for example, about whether wearing make-up leads to vanity. Being scrupulous is not what Christ wants for us. Scrupulosity means we are spending too much time worrying about small things, versus concentrating on what we can do for others (and I don't mean what advice we can give others about how to lead a Godly life). 

To me, the best rule of thumb is to dress and behave in a way that is appropriate for the time and place, and then forget about yourself.

 

[Ice_nine]

[NadaTeTurbe]

I volunteer with sexual abuse victims, and some of them gave up make up, nice clothes, hair products, etc... anything that make them beautiful, after their abuse. When they began to come back to make-up, nice clothes, hair products, we know it's not because of a "I want to be beautiful" state-of-mind, but because they feel like their body belong to them, and that they can take care of him, and that they can make it pretty, because it's their, and because it's nothing to be ashamed of. It's really interesting to have the explanation of psychiatrist about it, and I think that to reconcile with your body, is a way to reconcile with God. I don't do make-up because I neved had the occasion to begin with it, but if I was too do it, I see this as a way to "enfance" (french : mettre en valeur) the body that God gave to me. I think there's also a lot of vanity in some extreme modesty clothing, too. 
I am tattooed with the name of some death family members in my back, I have it because I wanted to have "for ever" in me, people who were for ever killed by hate and then forgotten. Often, tattoes have a meaning for the person who get it, and I don't see why it's vain and how you can make generalization about it. 

[MarysLittleFlower]

In my experience of life, wearing make-up or having a tattoo hasn't led anyone I've personally met onto a slippery slope of vanity.

I know it is a problem for some people, but I suspect it can often seem more of a problem than it actually is because we hear more about celebrities nowadays than we did in the days before "selfies" and Instagram. I don't know anyone who is a celebrity and I also don't know anyone who has been made overly vain by wearing make-up.

Also, one thing that happens naturally is that most people start to be more comfortable with themselves as they get older. When I was a teenager, I thought I was ugly and was always comparing my appearance to others. Over time, most people start to realize that other people aren't examining their looks that closely, and become less self-conscious.

Actually, I see a greater danger in being overly concerned, for example, about whether wearing make-up leads to vanity. Being scrupulous is not what Christ wants for us. Scrupulosity means we are spending too much time worrying about small things, versus concentrating on what we can do for others (and I don't mean what advice we can give others about how to lead a Godly life). 

To me, the best rule of thumb is to dress and behave in a way that is appropriate for the time and place, and then forget about yourself.

 

I believe it did tempt me to vanity but that's my experience... 

I volunteer with sexual abuse victims, and some of them gave up make up, nice clothes, hair products, etc... anything that make them beautiful, after their abuse. When they began to come back to make-up, nice clothes, hair products, we know it's not because of a "I want to be beautiful" state-of-mind, but because they feel like their body belong to them, and that they can take care of him, and that they can make it pretty, because it's their, and because it's nothing to be ashamed of. It's really interesting to have the explanation of psychiatrist about it, and I think that to reconcile with your body, is a way to reconcile with God. I don't do make-up because I neved had the occasion to begin with it, but if I was too do it, I see this as a way to "enfance" (french : mettre en valeur) the body that God gave to me. I think there's also a lot of vanity in some extreme modesty clothing, too. 
I am tattooed with the name of some death family members in my back, I have it because I wanted to have "for ever" in me, people who were for ever killed by hate and then forgotten. Often, tattoes have a meaning for the person who get it, and I don't see why it's vain and how you can make generalization about it. 

do you think its OK to seek extra modesty not to be noticed but because you feel at peace with it, like justsomething between you and God as a devotion?

Edited August 3, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[NadaTeTurbe]

If it draw unrequired attention to you, I don't think any good can come with it. By extra modest, I'm thinking about wearing modest clothes that, culturally, are not compatible with the current cultures you live in, i.e, a women in burka in the streets of France may be doing this because she want to be modest and closest to her God, but at the end, it's also a way to show how a good muslims she is. There's way to dress modestly (skirt or dress, etc...)  without people staring at you in the metro.