The strictest orders

[Gabriela]

1 hour ago, Peace said:

The strictest orders?

It has to be marriage, straight up. 

Do ya'll females EVER stop nagging? 

I'm just saying.

Why are you even in the VS?

[Peace]

7 minutes ago, Gabriela said:

Why are you even in the VS?

Only to be closer to you, Gabriela.

[Katie Bell]

So so weird.....

Anyway back to the sort of question i asked. 

4 hours ago, Katie Bell said:

Penance, as is said I have used a hair shirt under supervision. As for the rest. I have never been asked too and I don't even know if they are used any more in religious orders? I rember seeing it mentioned in, a nun's story. But that's a film. 

 

 

 

Edited February 24, 2016 by Katie Bell

[beatitude]

Katie, I remember you sharing that you are a young woman with autism and that you are very obsessed with religious life. In the past you have spoken about wanting to dress up in a habit and asked for advice on where you could buy one. This is making me cautious about answering these kinds of questions, and I'm also concerned that there is someone somewhere who would authorise the use of a hairshirt by a very young woman with neurodevelopmental disabilities who has this type of fixation.

If you approach a community purely because they use hair shirts, or other physical penances, you are unlikely to get a favourable response from them. You have written a lot about externals - habits, plank beds, etc. - but not much about what draws you in terms of spirituality and charism, and that is what matters more. If you are spiritually at home in a place then you will be able to live with its customs; if you're not, then you won't be able to stay no matter how much you like the customs.

It could be that you are just wanting to make a list of strict communities because of your strong interest in religious life, and not out of any intention to join. If that's the case, then fine, but I'm saying this in case you do have a vocation. It may not be what you want to hear but concentrating on habits and hair shirts isn't going to help you in your journey (and this is true for any discerner, autistic or not). Do you have a spiritual director? Some real-life guidance from a trusted person is essential here, preferably someone who knows a bit about ASD.

[Katie Bell]

Yes that was years ago. I do have mild autism. How ever i have managed to get on top of that. It has been a process where my family and Jesus have helped me grow as a person and overcome limitations that i have lived with most of my life. It will never leave me but learning how to live and cope with it is the best I will ever get. 

I have been interested in religious life and I have been drawn to it since I was 14. But till now I have always felt like the girl who was looking in. That's why I was interested in owning a habit too experience it. How ever this was all part of the problem. And not normal. I understand that. In fact this phorum helped me alot turn a corner there. 

Finaly the use of hair under the supervision of my church, is a step I have worked up too. They are aware of my condition and  have worked with me in pray sessions for a two years. The limited use is somthing that i requested but I left in the hards of the Father. It was looked into and over time has been introduced and used for rosary prayer and the stations of the cross. This however is infrequent and only suggested by my supervisor. 

The reason I am here asking the questions and trying to get perspective is i want to know whats rubish and what is right. 

My mother,  father and my priest all feel now is the time too follow my heart and too open my self up to the word and light of God. And like a cup see if he fills it up. I am attracted to stricter orders but I need to know what is what and if it's for me. I have no interest in wasting any ones time in a order before I was sure this is what I wanted. 

Oh and a major inspiration to me is Saint Maximilian Kolbe. His selflessness and sacrifice is somthing that that we can only aspire too.

 

Edited February 24, 2016 by Katie Bell

[vee]

The real question isnt the strictest but the most loving.  Love of God and love of neighbor.

[Antigonos]

8 hours ago, Peace said:

The strictest orders?

It has to be marriage, straight up. 

Do ya'll females EVER stop nagging? 

I'm just saying.

Raising children  

I don't think ANYONE is prepared for what it takes.

[josephine]

I remember an article of one of the franciscan sisters of the sorrowful mother, tor, about how her friend who is married lives a "harder"/stricter life than her

http://franciscansisterstor.blogspot.nl/2015/05/womans-destiny-beauty-of-motherhood.html

" She began to recall the day that she canonized me and all that she had said. She laughingly began to take back her canonization as she said, “Do you realize that I now wake up not just at 5 AM, but at midnight, at 2AM, and at 4AM?  I never get a full night’s sleep since I have had children.”  She went on, “And I never get to leave my house because I have three little ones that I have to dress and bring with me.  There are days when my patience won’t allow it.”  She topped it all off by saying, “And do you realize that I haven’t had a glass of wine since my honeymoon because I have either been nursing or pregnant?”

 

[Sister Marie]

Physical penances certainly seem radical when we speak about them and they can be good for the spiritual life but if you are looking for real penance life usually provides what you need.

I would definitely prefer to sleep on a straw mattress to the discomfort of being at odds with another sister and having to swallow my pride and apologize or act with charity towards her while letting go of a wrong committed against me.  I would prefer wearing a hair shirt to meeting with a parent (I'm a teacher.) who is going to scream at me (Just because you are a sister doesn't mean people act with more respect).  I would much prefer being cold to going to my room alone at night when I've experienced a failure or defeat during the day and there's no one to whom I can speak about it.  Keeping my mouth closed when I have an opinion and I'm right is much more difficult than waking up in the middle of the night for prayers.  

Sometimes these physical penances are attractive because we can control them and, of course, they don't take peace away from the soul.  However- cloistered, active, married, single- our penances come to us without much effort if we just pay attention to what life offers us.  There are many beautiful things about all vocations but there are unique struggles that are, in a sense, much more real than the physical penances we make up for ourselves.  I certainly don't mean to say that religious life is one big penance because there are a lot of wonderful and beautiful things about it but there are some very difficult moments that are the result of life and are much more effective in helping us grow spiritually and personally than any physical penance or strict living can accomplish.  

[Katie Bell]

So insightful. 

I'm not sure i would make the best mother in the world. But it's not that simple is it. You have to find a soul mate get married and then plan. 

My parents have looked after me and still are looking after me and I'm 25. It must be rough for them. Just becuase the people around me feel I am going so much in the right direction that i can explore the possibility of religious life does not mean it's been easy getting me here. 

 

They have worked so hard and loved me so hard! 

 

[Swami Mommy]

Yes, Sister Marie, yes!  You've hit the nail on the head.

[Katie Bell]

I guess my question was does it exist past hair shirts etc. And I'm guess it does and to just ask when I apply. 

And from the thing I have read a straw bed is far more common. 

I think i now need to talk to the order people have suggested. If there are any more people think I have missed out then just let me know. 

 

[Antigonos]

3 hours ago, josephine said:

I remember an article of one of the franciscan sisters of the sorrowful mother, tor, about how her friend who is married lives a "harder"/stricter life than her

http://franciscansisterstor.blogspot.nl/2015/05/womans-destiny-beauty-of-motherhood.html

" She began to recall the day that she canonized me and all that she had said. She laughingly began to take back her canonization as she said, “Do you realize that I now wake up not just at 5 AM, but at midnight, at 2AM, and at 4AM?  I never get a full night’s sleep since I have had children.”  She went on, “And I never get to leave my house because I have three little ones that I have to dress and bring with me.  There are days when my patience won’t allow it.”  She topped it all off by saying, “And do you realize that I haven’t had a glass of wine since my honeymoon because I have either been nursing or pregnant?”

 

Oddly enough, the physical side of child raising, the lifting, carrying, cooking, laundry, getting little or no rest, etc. is actually not the heaviest part of it.  The constant emotional support, the need to be alert for the slightest kind of problem, or illness, the constant need to be protective yet stand by when the child needs to develop independence, to encourage and educate, are often far more stressful and wearing.  You aren't really going to see the results until your children, in their turn, become parents and, by their actions, you see how well you succeeded.

[Egeria]

I share the concerns of others concerning focusing on physical austerities. But I also think that it's pretty meaningless to talk about the strictest orders or monasteries. Yes, Carthusians are strict, but they have a huge cell and oodles of solitude that many Cistercians would be positively envious of. Carmelites might sleep on straw mattresses, but they have a significant amount of time in their cells. Then again, they have recreation, which would be a positive penance to some, while others might long for it. And which is "strictest": Getting up in the middle of the night and going back to bed again, or getting up at 3 am and staying up?

In short, the greatest penance is living with other people, and living with yourself - especially as you hit up against your own weakness and don't have anywhere to hide from it.

 

[MarysLittleFlower]

On 2/23/2016 3:23:12, Katie Bell said:

1st thanks for all the imput. 

Some great point have been raised. 

I would never look at the kind of life's people are describing for a romantic reason. You have to be called too it. I think you would have to look at your reasons and motivations if you didn't have a strong calling from God to live that way. 

When talking with karla, she had had that calling.  Saying she loved fashion her phone and modern life. But had been called at a very young age too go on a path that lead her to her cloistered life she now leads. 

Ever since she has gone in i have looked more and more into this sort of life and trying to learn what it is that drives the people into it.

How ever of late I admit to looking at them as a positive way forward for my life as well. I love my phone, creature comforts. But yet for the last two months I have been trying to learn about strick community's. 

I guess it's hard to contact these places though....

I see those kinds of orders as based on a call to live a very hidden life with God, seen by Him alone, and the penance part of it helps to detach the heart to love God more exclusively. I.don't know my vocation yet but I have felt drawn to this sort of life for these reasons. I guess its up to the community to say if the reasons are good ones. The only thing I'd caution is penance simply for its own sake without thinking of virtue. One needs to be a called, as you said

On 2/23/2016 3:50:32, beatitude said:

'Strict' is very difficult to define, because as editharmon says, what's difficult for one person might not be difficult for another. The hardest Lenten penance I've ever undertaken was stopping complaining - I fell into complaints without noticing before midday on Ash Wednesday, my quickest tumble yet! An intense physical fast honestly wasn't so hard compared to that. My experience made me think of the words of the novice mistress in Rumer Godden's book In This House of Brede, which she based closely on Stanbrook Abbey:

"They are dear, good girls," Dame Ursula often said of the novitiate - it did not matter which novitiate - "if only they wouldn't be so ardent. They want to sleep on planks, go barefoot, which isn't necessary, but they won't use up a reel of thread, or make a pencil last, or darn and patch, which is necessary..."

Some people are called to a life with more physical austerities. Those communities still exist. But I think anyone who is drawn to that way of life needs to remember that what looks most difficult from the outside may not be what she finds most difficult when she's actually there, and that a way of life that looks easy and cushioned from the outside may be much more challenging than she realises. The community Carla entered, for example, is not some extreme example of austerity - it's about typical for a Carmel, no more and no less. If that's the way of life you're drawn to, you shouldn't have to look far for it.

From speaking to someone who tried Carmelite life, I agree its not always what you'd expect. The hardest part could be mortifying ones will in obedience or not being able to pray when you feel you need to - not abstinence from meat or another physical penance. I guess that's why we discern by visiting a place

[MarysLittleFlower]

This is an interesting thread.. Many good points here that made me think. I teach little children and I've found one of the hardest things is just acting very cheerful and focusing on them when I'm having a bad day. I guess that's how its like for mothers too. I also.live with a friend and we follow a rule of life together with the permission of our priest. There is much silence and at first this was difficult. But now I see the most difficult aspect of it is having no one to speak to if I'm upset about something. I just have to ignore it and continue with the daily schedule and pray about it to God. I think this helped me the most to understand what religious life must be like - in a limited way of course. Now I'm grateful for these struggles because they've helped me to learn to rely more on God and mortify my desire to complain. One thing that must be very difficult is the obedience. You silently accept what you are told in a monastery - as Sr Marie said, it doesn't matter if you're right or think you're right or disagree. There's exterior penances that dispose to virtue too but interior mortifications can be the hardest.

On 2/24/2016 8:41:50, Katie Bell said:

I guess my question was does it exist past hair shirts etc. And I'm guess it does and to just ask when I apply. 

And from the thing I have read a straw bed is far more common. 

I think i now need to talk to the order people have suggested. If there are any more people think I have missed out then just let me know. 

 

Some orders have more penances but it depends on the community. I'd recommend not thinking too much about the penances yet and just asking yourself what charism are you drawn to? What is your attraction to? And then maybe just visiting and looking at it visiting would help to give more light. 

Edited February 25, 2016 by MarysLittleFlower

[vee]

55 minutes ago, MarysLittleFlower said:

 One thing that must be very difficult is the obedience. You silently accept what you are told in a monastery - as Sr Marie said, it doesn't matter if you're right or think you're right or disagree.

Im not sure Im able to express this well but for the community Im interested in I didnt find that to be the case from what I saw.  The sisters listen to the superior of course, however, if they had a idea, suggestion, or even a bit of an objection  they did express it if they thought it was necessary  The superior would consider it and might change or keep her request it jsut depended.   I found it to be a healthy and respectful exchange.

 

[Sister Marie]

52 minutes ago, vee said:

Im not sure Im able to express this well but for the community Im interested in I didnt find that to be the case from what I saw.  The sisters listen to the superior of course, however, if they had a idea, suggestion, or even a bit of an objection  they did express it if they thought it was necessary  The superior would consider it and might change or keep her request it jsut depended.   I found it to be a healthy and respectful exchange.

 

Yes, I wasn't referring to silent acceptance of everything and especially not of big decisions.  I was thinking of more mundane conversations.  For example, one sister might insist that the temperature tomorrow is going to be 46 and I might know she is wrong... Refraining from commenting is a penance and when you live with 20 other women you end up practicing it a lot!   

On the other hand, we live under a superior but we make community decisions together and there is a very healthy and respectful exchange of opinions and perspectives.  Sometimes its more difficult to have the healthy exchange than it is to keep quiet.  It isn't always easy to share what we think in front of a group of women for discussion.  Some dialogue is a good and necessary part of healthy community life though.  You could think of this as a penance in the sense that it is a necessary but uncomfortable part of life too.

MLF, you are right that one of the most difficult parts of religious life, while we have the companionship and support of the sisters with whom we live, is that at night we are alone with ourselves in the silence.  This is fine when we feel successful and good, happy and satisfied.  However, feelings of sadness, regret, pain, insecurity, and frustration are part of every life and often we can't share those parts the way someone might share with a spouse or even with a friend after a bad day or a huge failure.  I am grateful for my sisters but the reason we've come together in this life is to rely on God and that empty space is where God meets us.

So, if you told me I could sleep on a straw mattress for the rest of my life and be free of the sleepless restless nights that accompany those feelings - I would say the straw mattress was like a king size bed with the softest sheets and warmest blankets!  But it is definitely in my warm, normal bed through sleepless nights that I do major penance.  

[He is Risen!]

This varies so much from community to community!  The community I was in to the outside world looked pretty strict (plank beds, begging, etc.) and that was totally fine by me because I was used to a rugged lifestyle, but many of the sisters said they could never be Sisters of Life (who bake cookies, go rollerblading, and do other things that might look luxerious) because they couldn't have coffee until breakfast time while our pot was on before Office of Readings!  For me (and most of us there) the greatest poverty was surrender of will and not of a physical thing.  I believe though that the Lord gives us the grace to handle whatever life we are called to, even if there is no coffee at all! (haha)

Edited February 25, 2016 by He is Risen!

[Gabriela]

56 minutes ago, He is Risen! said:

This varies so much from community to community!  The community I was in to the outside world looked pretty strict (plank beds, begging, etc.) and that was totally fine by me because I was used to a rugged lifestyle, but many of the sisters said they could never be Sisters of Life (who bake cookies, go rollerblading, and do other things that might look luxerious) because they couldn't have coffee until breakfast time while our pot was on before Office of Readings!  For me (and most of us there) the greatest poverty was surrender of will and not of a physical thing.  I believe though that the Lord gives us the grace to handle whatever life we are called to, even if there is no coffee at all! (haha)

For the record:

Does that make me badder than a Carthusian?  

Edited February 25, 2016 by Gabriela