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5 hours ago, Gabriela said:

I had no problem waking up in the middle of the night to go pray, even though God knows I am the absolute worst person about getting up on time in the morning. Part of me just knew there was somewhere I had to be, so I was up and in chapel on time. I find I have a much easier time getting up in the monastery in general, cuz I know I need to be somewhere.

For those who think that breaking sleep, as is done in the monastery, is somehow "unnatural", you really need to read this article: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-16964783

As that article explains, sleeping 8 hours straight through is actually what's unnatural. You can know this because what baby sleeps 8 straight hours? None. Cuz that's not how humans naturally sleep. You have to learn to sleep that way.

You can also unlearn it. :) 

BTW: The Carthusians I discerned with were very lenient about the midnight Matins thing. It was perfectly acceptable for a sister to miss Matins 1–2 times per week, if she really needed sleep. She didn't need to justify or explain this to anybody. It was accepted that she had this right.

That being said, I did not take that opportunity, because I knew that, if you are trying to train your body to sleep in a new way, then the worst thing you can do is interrupt that process by sleeping in the old way!

I'm really interested in how you can unlearn sleeping all night. Do you have more info? Can you PM me?

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1 hour ago, Spem in alium said:

I'm really interested in how you can unlearn sleeping all night. Do you have more info? Can you PM me?

Well, I tried to PM you, but the system says you can't receive PMs right now...?

Here's what I wrote:

+ Hi Spem,

It's not a complicated thing. Basically, there are two ways I know of:

1. Go to bed as soon as you're tired. If you're a normal person, that's fairly early in the evening—maybe even in the afternoon. Let yourself sleep about 3–4 hours. Set an alarm. When you wake up, stay up till you're tired again. Then let yourself sleep 3–4 hours. Set an alarm. Etc.

That's one way. People who prefer to sleep at two different times of day (afternoon, really early morning; or late evening, late morning; etc.) typically do it that way. But notice that you just sleep when your body naturally feels tired. People on strict (or even just normal) schedules can't usually do this. I can sometimes, cuz I work from home a lot. Freelancers can. You get the idea.

2. If you prefer to sleep in two closer blocks (like in the cloisters that do midnight Matins), then go to bed a couple hours before you normally do. Set your alarm for 3–4 hours from bedtime. When you get up, stay up for 2 or 3 hours. Then go back to sleep with an alarm set for 3–4 hours from your second bedtime. You can lengthen that middle period as much as you want, so long as you're up by the time you need to be in the morning. Really, one's schedule determines the two bedtimes here. This is the more common way for people who actually have a "real schedule".

 

The key to unlearning/learning anything is committing to it and sticking with it. But here, it's also important that you pay attention to what works for you. Some people (my SD) sleeps polyphasically in the second way. I have terrible nightmares if I do that. (Totally weird, but true.) I prefer the first way, which is more responsive to when my body actually feels tired. (Of course, over time, I start feeling tired at the same times every day, so that does regularize eventually into an adapted-just-for-my-special-body schedule!)

Many people find they need less sleep when they sleep polyphasically, so you'll feel out whether you need 3 or 4 or however many hours in each sleep block. Others find they're super productive in those quiet in-between hours (for the second-way sleepers). For some people, of course it's impossible to sleep anytime of the day, like the first way, so they do it the second way just because of schedule constraints. If you're on a strict schedule—which I assume you are as a religious—then you'll know which way is possible for you.

Does all that make sense? If not, let me know. The way to succeed at this is just to listen to your body, make adaptations as necessary, but stick with it. In the beginning, getting up after 3–4 hours is going to royally smell of elderberries. But after a time, you adjust, and you do feel better, more alert, and more productive once you're accustomed to it.

[There's another Phatmasser who sleeps polyphasically, but I don't want to publish who that is publicly.] She sleeps polyphasically and has for years. I'm sure she's got tips. [If we can get the PM system working for you, I'll tell you who it is. I'm sure she'd be happy to share her experience.]

Good luck! :) 

In Him,

Gabriela

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3 hours ago, Gabriela said:

Well, I tried to PM you, but the system says you can't receive PMs right now...?

Here's what I wrote:

+ Hi Spem,

It's not a complicated thing. Basically, there are two ways I know of:

1. Go to bed as soon as you're tired. If you're a normal person, that's fairly early in the evening—maybe even in the afternoon. Let yourself sleep about 3–4 hours. Set an alarm. When you wake up, stay up till you're tired again. Then let yourself sleep 3–4 hours. Set an alarm. Etc.

That's one way. People who prefer to sleep at two different times of day (afternoon, really early morning; or late evening, late morning; etc.) typically do it that way. But notice that you just sleep when your body naturally feels tired. People on strict (or even just normal) schedules can't usually do this. I can sometimes, cuz I work from home a lot. Freelancers can. You get the idea.

2. If you prefer to sleep in two closer blocks (like in the cloisters that do midnight Matins), then go to bed a couple hours before you normally do. Set your alarm for 3–4 hours from bedtime. When you get up, stay up for 2 or 3 hours. Then go back to sleep with an alarm set for 3–4 hours from your second bedtime. You can lengthen that middle period as much as you want, so long as you're up by the time you need to be in the morning. Really, one's schedule determines the two bedtimes here. This is the more common way for people who actually have a "real schedule".

 

The key to unlearning/learning anything is committing to it and sticking with it. But here, it's also important that you pay attention to what works for you. Some people (my SD) sleeps polyphasically in the second way. I have terrible nightmares if I do that. (Totally weird, but true.) I prefer the first way, which is more responsive to when my body actually feels tired. (Of course, over time, I start feeling tired at the same times every day, so that does regularize eventually into an adapted-just-for-my-special-body schedule!)

Many people find they need less sleep when they sleep polyphasically, so you'll feel out whether you need 3 or 4 or however many hours in each sleep block. Others find they're super productive in those quiet in-between hours (for the second-way sleepers). For some people, of course it's impossible to sleep anytime of the day, like the first way, so they do it the second way just because of schedule constraints. If you're on a strict schedule—which I assume you are as a religious—then you'll know which way is possible for you.

Does all that make sense? If not, let me know. The way to succeed at this is just to listen to your body, make adaptations as necessary, but stick with it. In the beginning, getting up after 3–4 hours is going to royally smell of elderberries. But after a time, you adjust, and you do feel better, more alert, and more productive once you're accustomed to it.

[There's another Phatmasser who sleeps polyphasically, but I don't want to publish who that is publicly.] She sleeps polyphasically and has for years. I'm sure she's got tips. [If we can get the PM system working for you, I'll tell you who it is. I'm sure she'd be happy to share her experience.]

Good luck! :) 

In Him,

Gabriela

Thanks so much; I didn't realise my inbox was 100% full. You should now be able to PM me. :) 

I think I'd like to try and pray during the night. I find praying before the sun has risen (and when everyone else is either sleeping or not around) to be very enriching. Being with God in the darkness is very powerful for me --- as is watching the sunrise with Him. :) 

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Because my sister is mentioned here several times i fell urge to react.Several time on this topic my sister is shown in the way that she has been asking some kind of extreme lifestyle and that it is reason why she enter her community.This can not be true in any way.I know what are the reasons why my sister pick Carmelite community and this reasons are only spiritually and nothing more.Her monastery is only 14 years old and she have very plesent living conditions.Better then 90% of the monasteries in my country.Only difference with her community is that it  is cloister and that is all.So i'm asking you polite that you stop mentioned her in that light.Thank you and God bless you all.

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Hi, 1st in regards to your sister. She was one of the most inspirational people I have ever spoken too.  I spent alot of time talking too her in the year before she went in to the point she asked me what size I was to see if she could send me her clothes. When she became a postulant. I miss our talks greatly. 

I am sorry if your unhappy she was mentioned in this conforsation. I only a few parts of our conformations in a general sense. To explain where some of my motorvations came from. 

She is a amazing person and I have said many prayers for her. 

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3 hours ago, Carla said:

Because my sister is mentioned here several times i fell urge to react.Several time on this topic my sister is shown in the way that she has been asking some kind of extreme lifestyle and that it is reason why she enter her community.This can not be true in any way.I know what are the reasons why my sister pick Carmelite community and this reasons are only spiritually and nothing more.Her monastery is only 14 years old and she have very plesent living conditions.Better then 90% of the monasteries in my country.Only difference with her community is that it  is cloister and that is all.So i'm asking you polite that you stop mentioned her in that light.Thank you and God bless you all.

I'm confused. Who is your sister, Carla?

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17 hours ago, Spem in alium said:

Thanks so much; I didn't realise my inbox was 100% full. You should now be able to PM me. :) 

I think I'd like to try and pray during the night. I find praying before the sun has risen (and when everyone else is either sleeping or not around) to be very enriching. Being with God in the darkness is very powerful for me --- as is watching the sunrise with Him. :) 

Thanks, Nada. Where did Carla enter? And when? I guess I missed that...

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11 minutes ago, Gabriela said:

Thanks, Nada. Where did Carla enter? And when? I guess I missed that...

She entered a Carmel in Croatia. Its website seems to be down at the moment. I knew of it through a Hungarian friend before Carla entered there, so I can see why her family might be a bit put out at it being presented as a bastion of medieval-style asceticism - it's a pretty typical Carmelite community. They do penance, but nothing extreme or unusual.

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5 hours ago, Gabriela said:

I'm confused. Who is your sister, Carla?

I do apologize because of possible confusion.Maybe i could open new account it will be less confusing.I'm Carla's older sister and i write sometimes some updates.She have meet here some people who are very dare to her and in that way they can get information about her postulate.I apologize once more about confusion.

Maybe i have react to hard but i know for sure that she will not like that she is presented in that light.As some kind of extreme person.

She already have challenging time for adjusting for new life and this one for sure will not help in any way.

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Carla's sister, I don't think that any of us who read Carla's posts ever thought she was an extreme kind of person.  She seemed to be a sweet, kind, devout, generous person who graciously shared her discernment journey with us...she is greatly missed here on VS.  Thank you for providing updates.

 

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3 hours ago, Carla said:

I do apologize because of possible confusion.Maybe i could open new account it will be less confusing.I'm Carla's older sister and i write sometimes some updates.She have meet here some people who are very dare to her and in that way they can get information about her postulate.I apologize once more about confusion.

Maybe i have react to hard but i know for sure that she will not like that she is presented in that light.As some kind of extreme person.

She already have challenging time for adjusting for new life and this one for sure will not help in any way.

No worries! I understand now! :) 

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Hi, 

I am sorry you feel that she has been shown in a light that is not her. 

I have only stated a few general things we talked about. There are loads of things we talked about I have chosen not too as they were simply too personal. 

I am glad she is doing well though. As she was going through alot of the feelings I am now. And that gives me hope that I will be ok. 

 

Katie 

 

 

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