So sick of hearing about these priest molesting kids

[BarbTherese]

Appreciate your post, FP - you posted while I was writing mine.

Paedophilia is a sexual attraction specifically to a child as I understand it - it is the childhood that is the primary sexual attraction.  While homosexuality is sexual attraction to the same gender and it is the like gender that attracts sexually rather than opposite gender.  Some abusing priests assaulted both males and females - and there is more access by priests to male children in The Church than female children  - by just more or less glancing over some reports.  I do wonder if it might be lust out of control where children are simply available sexual objects for gratification and nothing more.  On the other hand, it might be homosexual lust out of control or acted out on male children as available objects.

I presume that in some cases of rape of both children and adults it could be a need to dominate and humiliate coming into play.

Can it all be pinned down to any one and only singular cause?

 

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said:

 

 

I resolved them through acknowledging that for me to abandon The Church would be to abandon Christ and His Gospel.  There was no way I could walk away from my absolute belief in the Presence of The Real Body and Blood of Christ in The Blessed Eucharist. Much reasoning and reflection flowed from that premise and mental and emotional stance. Disillusionment re certain Church leadership of all kinds in action and at parish level (i.e. The Church as a humanly functioning institution) was a possible and a result – but never to leave The Church.  To stand beside Christ no matter what comes along is my hope and prayer to the end.  I think this is what The Creed we recite prayerfully (i.e. addressed to God) during Mass is all about – and we renew our baptismal promises or vows at Easter and possibly at other times too.  These are not light words at all.  They have serious meanings and implications, responsibility and accountability.

And since Holy Week and Easter is coming up – a Catholic Culture article account of Roman crucifixion using various reliable sources as well as The Gospel account: http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/liturgicalyear/overviews/seasons/lent/passion1.cfm

Thanks for the link I will check it out. The Church is the body of believers. It's not just Catholics. I do believe in the Eucharist. Although I also believe sincere love filled Christians eat and drink Jesus's flesh and blood as well. His daily bread extends to all who have a sincere faith and walk in love. Not downplaying the Eucharist but I will not fool myself for one minute that Catholics who receive the Eucharist are automatically closer to God and better than Christians who don't go to Mass. Yes I believe Jesus started the Catholic Church and He's there in the Eucharist. But Jesus also said where 2 or more are gathered in my name there I am in the midst of them. Catholics don't have the monopoly on Jesus. People want transparency. I want these disgusting scandals of children being sexually abused brought to the light. Not Bishops trying to save face and make the Catholic Church look good by hiding it and covering it up. It's to late for that. Why is this **** still trying to be covered up in 2016 when the whole freaking world already knows about this??? And I'm not gonna just shut up about it when it's in the current events and our Church leaders are still doing the same beaver dam thing and trying to cover up croutons.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Guest

[Guest]

Just now, PhuturePriest said:

Being gay does not mean you will molest children, but that's exactly what you're implying. "It had everything to do with it." No, it doesn't.

In all honesty, Josh, I think you are trying to make sense of the situation by simplifying a complex issue so you can understand it. But it is unfortunately a very complex issue. It cannot be fixed by ostracizing a group of people and throwing them out. Scapegoating is society's favorite pastime, but it does not work and simply results in hurting a lot of people. Your words are incredibly offensive to many faithful Catholics, both lay and clergy, who have same-sex attraction. Your fixation on this issue and increasingly vitriolic rants about it are getting very wearisome.

I say this as a straight male pursuing the priesthood: your words are incredibly ostracizing and offensive to many people who both read and participate in these forums. Please think about how your words are interpreted by others and how they affect them. Gay people are not evil. Straight and gay refer to sexual orientation in accordance with the person's age (meaning 15 year olds like others near their age, adults like adults, etc.) Being a pedophile is an entirely different orientation and it happens for completely different reasons. These are psychologically damaged people who need help, and you are not helping them by blaming it on gay people and denouncing every faithful priest with SSA. You are instead hurting peoples' feelings and making people angry. I know several very faithful priests who indeed have same-sex attraction, and they are priests all priests should aspire to be like. Your words would hurt and anger them deeply, and they anger me, too.

The Church now has stringent qualifiers for letting people in, including rules about orientation. Anyone who has "deep-seated homosexual tendencies" is not to be admitted. However, "deep-seated" does not mean "anyone who finds men attractive". There are many faithful men in seminaries and the priesthood who were chosen by the Church with knowledge of their orientation because they were perfectly capable of living the priestly life without added problems with the regular problems of all other priests. They function like all other priests, and they are just as holy or unholy as all other priests. Your orientation does not determine your holiness. Please stop trying to simplify this issue, and please stop scapegoating. It's a horrible thing to do, and it's very unchristian.

Please think about what you say. Words are far more damaging than any of us like to think about.

Dude these were young boyish/teenagers. Stop saying that these priests weren't attracted to them. Really what are you talking about?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? I'm not throwing anyone out. I said previously in this thread and countless other times on Phatmass that I have no problem with gay people. I never said gay people are evil. Never said anything like that so stop with that bull****. I'm not "fixated" on this issue. It's in the NEWS because it KEEPS HAPPENING AND TRYING TO BE COVERED UP AND THAT'S NOT OKAY OR ACCEPTABLE.

[BarbTherese]

27 minutes ago, Josh said:

Thanks for the link I will check it out. The Church is the body of believers. It's not just Catholics. I do believe in the Eucharist. Although I also believe sincere love filled Christians eat and drink Jesus's flesh and blood as well. His daily bread extends to all who have  a sincere faith and walk in love. Not downplaying the Eucharist but I will not fool myself for one minute that Catholics who receive the Eucharist are closer to God and better than Christians who don't go to Mass. Yes I believe Jesus started the Catholic Church and He's there in the Eucharist. But Jesus also said where 2 or more are gathered in my name there I am in the midst of them. Catholics don't have the monopoly on Jesus. People want transparency. I want these disgusting scandals of children being sexually abused brought to the light. Not Bishops trying to save face and make the Catholic Church look good by hiding it and covering it up. And I'm not gonna just shut up about it when this stuff is in the current events. 

I think you have the right, Josh, to express your opinion like any of us here on Phatmass.  This forum is introduced by "talk about anything you want here. Don' be afraid" Any of us and perhaps even all of us at one time or another might cop some flack for doing so.  It is always the better move, I think, to speak to the argument/concepts presented rather than to speak to personalities, motivations etc.  The written word especially is so easily misunderstood.  It can be difficult where something is close to our hearts and emotions to keep that emotion in check.  I used to be a person who would speak up anywhere at all to anyone at all what I felt and with much anger if that was my underlying emotion.  I learnt over time, much time, to curb that habit when a very wise person said to me that I did really have something to say that needed to be heard, but when it came out in a burst of anger or any extreme emotion, others would not hear the content probably because of the emotive presentation which they could not move beyond.  Something like that.

Of course, I also believe absolutely that every person without exception on earth has free access to a relationship with Jesus.  While ideally we should be far better people than all because we do have The Blessed Eucharist, The Mass and The Sacraments, truth of the matter is that many to most of us probably are not better people and no better than anyone else for sure - using "better" because I can't think just now of a more appropriate term.  The very meaning of the Catholic terms "canonized saint" implies that they have reached that level of heroic holiness to which God has called and Graced them - i.e. their true identity here on earth.  We are all called to this and we all have the means. This does not mean at all nor am I implying that only canonized saints are saints indeed.  However, having access to the astounding Graces we do have in the aforementioned, it does spell out for us that we really do have as Catholics a tremendous responsibility and accountability we walk around with daily and hourly - by the minute and second.  And responsibility and accountability that we will need to speak to on the Day of Judgement.  I sure hope I never loose trust in the Infinite extent of God's Mercy to any who appeal to it - especially in This Year of Mercy.

But please do not interpret the above as meaning a person outside The Catholic Church cannot reach that level of heroic holiness to which God has called and Graced them.  "All things are possible to God"

Luke 18:27
He said to them: The things that are impossible with men, are possible with God.

I believe that all are called to The Catholic Church while all may not reach Heaven via that route.  It is a Mystery in God.

All as I see it, Josh.

Edited March 3, 2016 by BarbaraTherese

[PhuturePriest]

Just now, Josh said:

Dude these were young boyish/teenagers. Stop saying that these priests weren't attracted to them. Really what are you talking about?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? I'm not throwing anyone out. I said previously in this thread and countless other times on Phatmass that I have no problem with gay people. I never said gay people are evil. Never said anything like that so stop with that bull****. I'm not "fixated" on this issue. It's in the NEWS because it KEEPS HAPPENING AND TRYING TO BE COVERED UP AND THAT'S NOT OKAY OR ACCEPTABLE.

You're the only person who constantly makes threads about it. In fact, I'm pretty sure you're the only person who makes any threads about it. You are fixated on the issue. You constantly talk about this, constantly make threads about this, and constantly whine and bemoan it. These threads make zero difference to the issue. Scapegoating gay people makes zero difference in helping and causes a lot of unnecessary hurt.

That this happens is bad. That it is sometimes covered up is bad. Everyone agrees. Pray for the people involved. That does a lot more good than continually harping about it on Phatmass.

Many of the victims were young girls, too. Pedophilia is a sexual orientation. Gay people do not molest children, pedophiles do. I don't understand why you can't get this. Being gay =/= an attraction to children. There are many married straight men who are pedophiles.

You are indeed throwing people out. You said you wanted to when you said gay men have no place in the priesthood. That's scapegoating and throwing an entire group out. That's throwing out a lot of good, solid, orthodox priests who serve God and the Church faithfully. You have no place to tell God he called the wrong people. You have no authority to decide this. The Church itself hasn't even decided this. That you correlate being gay with pedophilia shows you lack basic understanding of sexual orientations and disorders. That you continually deny this shows you have no interest whatsoever in learning or in entertaining the idea that you might be wrong. I'm not going to waste my time continually defending good Catholics and priests because you refuse to reason with anyone. I've said what I needed to, and I don't see where this discussion is going to go at this point.

[Guest]

Romans 10:9

If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED.

 

[BarbTherese]

About the link, Josh.  Some have missed over the years that it is nine pages long..........and I usually warn (and should do so I think) that it is very graphic indeed with some diagrams and not for the 'weak of heart'.

[PhuturePriest]

2 minutes ago, Josh said:

Romans 10:9

If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED.

 

A text without a context is a pretext. You can't pick and choose verses.

We all hope protestants are saved. But protestants lack the Sacraments which do in fact bring us closer to God and give us a lot better chance at getting to heaven. That's why we have them in the first place. The Sacraments are God bending over backwards to get us into heaven. Rejecting any of them as protestants do is dangerous business, which is why we should pray for our protestant brothers and sisters.

[BarbTherese]

...........and sincerely hope they will pray for us too................

Must admit, FP, that I cannot agree with all your concepts and perspectives in your most recent post.  Rather than The Mass and Sacraments, for example, being God bending over backwards to get us into Heaven - I regard them as God's Loving Longing for us to have a loving relationship with Him in Intimacy.

Edited March 3, 2016 by BarbaraTherese

[Guest]

First off I don't bring it up all the time by starting threads. I've commented on it in other threads already started. Second I brought it up now because that article just came out. A Catholic friend shared it and asked for Prayers because it's happening where he lives. This site is about Catholic stuff. If I'm gonna practice my faith then these issues need to be addressed when it's in the CURRENT EVENTS. You act like I'm talking about **** from 10 years ago. No I'm talking about stuff from yesterday. Stuff that is crippling people's faith in the Church. I pay no attention to Voris but he honestly has my respect for addressing this stuff.

[BarbTherese]

Could you link, please Josh, to the article to which you refer i.e. "because that article just came out".

[Guest]

It's on the front page of open mic.

[BarbTherese]

1 hour ago, Josh said:

It's on the front page of open mic.

Thanks Josh - I try to access Phatmass daily for at least a read ,.........but now and then I miss and fall behind!  

[Papist]

11 hours ago, Anomaly said:

As were many people tired of hearing about it.   When I was a practicing Catholic, (within the last ten years) teaching Confirmation classes and a key adult mentor in the youth group, I helped diminish and squash the info of a priest grooming a kid.   Before that, as a member of the school board, I was involved and have first hand knowledge of another cover up of a student on student molestation in a Catholic school.  We were close friends with the abused kids parents . 

I understand the desire to protect the Church, parochial school, Catholicism, and it's institutions.  Looking back, it became apparent how easy it is to justify things to avoid "greater" harm.  People were sick of hearing these stories, even as they were happening again. 

What is your point?

11 hours ago, Josh said:

I don't know what to tell you. I guess you're of the opinion don't speak about it because it makes the Church look bad. Like Anomaly said let's talk more about all the people going to hell for masturbation and missing Mass. 

I wouldn't bring it up EXCEPT this article and NEW information just got released. More Bishops hiding **** and keeping priests around who do this sick twisted ****. You're acting as if I'm bringing up old news. Not the case. And again a STRAIGHT MAN is not capable of molesting or or hooking up with boys. The minute he is he isn't straight.

This is not about making the Church look bad or not.  You are free to talk about it all you want. I just  do not see the value in it. 

As far as "all the people going to hell for masturbation and missing Mass", no one here can determine if someone is going to hell or not. 

[PhuturePriest]

6 hours ago, BarbaraTherese said:

...........and sincerely hope they will pray for us too................

Must admit, FP, that I cannot agree with all your concepts and perspectives in your most recent post.  Rather than The Mass and Sacraments, for example, being God bending over backwards to get us into Heaven - I regard them as God's Loving Longing for us to have a loving relationship with Him in Intimacy.

They are. But in the words of Father Vincent Serpa, OP, something like confession really is "God bending over backwards to save us." I don't see how the two are diametrically opposed. If God wants us to be saved, clearly he loves us and wants to have a relationship with us. Something like mortal sin stops that from happening, so he performs a supernatural feat and forgives us through confession. I see this as a both/and, not an either/or.

[Anomaly]

1 hour ago, Papist said:

What is your point?

I don't really think you've missed the point.  

[BarbTherese]

7 hours ago, PhuturePriest said:

They are. But in the words of Father Vincent Serpa, OP, something like confession really is "God bending over backwards to save us." I don't see how the two are diametrically opposed. If God wants us to be saved, clearly he loves us and wants to have a relationship with us. Something like mortal sin stops that from happening, so he performs a supernatural feat and forgives us through confession. I see this as a both/and, not an either/or.

I agree that we are both saying the same thing, we are just using different language or terminology and I could see that when I read your post.  I did not think at all that we were "diametrically opposed" nor stated such, it is your own concluding.  I thought we just have a different type of perspective and emphasis and using different language or concepts, perspectives, to say what is basically the very same thing. 

Another general comment in passing I would like to make (nor for the first time) is that those who are regular contributors on Phatmass are probably pretty much aware of other more regular contributors and attitudes etc.  We have no way of knowing however who reads these forums without membership or contributions either on a more or less regular basis or just in passing - and the influence/effect what we write may have on them.  Catholic Discussion sites could be said to be more or less an internet and very public indeed face of Catholicism. Some, indeed, might read a post or forum and then never return to read until after a long passage of time. This is a quite public place - and as I said before, this OpenMic Forum is introduced by: "talk about anything you like. Don't be afraid". 

 

 

 

 

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Like i was thinking even if the clergy was never defroked for this and i was lied to or the person was mistaken we really can not tolerate rape, molestation and murder amongst the ranks of the Holy priesthood, and even if defrocking and or ex communication is not a viable option they need to be locked up in cloistered orders permanently where they can do no further damage (unlike ordinary society where they may only get 5 years jail, we need to be a lot harder on the clergy due to holy scripture and it's warning to those who know more being more greatly punished if they fall), immediately when discovered, unfortunately one strike and your out for such serious offences when it comes to being a priest.

I could be wrong.

 

JEsus iz LORD!

[BarbTherese]

I agree that there should indeed be immediate very serious consequences right from any first criminal offence in the priesthood including reporting to police and full disclosure -  and it would be hoped that in priestly formation nowadays it would be made clear.  Our priests vow or promise lifelong celibacy and they know this ( I presume) when discerning for the priesthood prior to the seminary.  In the seminary one would hope and again especially nowadays that seminarians are instructed fully in what the vow or promise of celibacy is all about and what it entails fully and as a vow or promise to God.   We need transparency too so that out here 'in the pews' we can understand what the priestly vow of celibacy (for one) is all about in day to day life of a priest or religious.  The days of often secrecy about priest and religious formation and details of daily life ended with V2 thankfully - I would hope.  The Vatican has spoken on the matter re homosexuality and priesthood http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccatheduc/documents/rc_con_ccatheduc_doc_20051104_istruzione_en.html

It is important too and not to be lost in discussions that we do have far more good and committed priests and religious than we do those that criminally offend and break their vow to God.  As Shakespeare has said ... sort of ... the evil done speaks louder than any good in the public forum.     ("The evil men do lives after them, the good is oft interred with their bones") 

No reason nor excuse to attempt to make less of the extremely serious scandals that have occurred within Catholicism - and no reason nor excuse to not search and journey for "never ever again" within Catholicism for one.

[Guest]

On 3/2/2016 2:16:01, enitharmon said:

These reflections on the movie Spotlight resonated with me, particularly this paragraph:

"Anyway, the most emotionally wrenching scene for me was the one where Rezendes is breaking down on the back porch of a newspaper colleague’s apartment. He’s finally seen the depths of the church’s depravity in Boston, and, as he puts it, “something cracked.” He says he was raised Catholic, and had drifted from the Church, but always thought he would return. Now, knowing what he knows, that path is closed, and it’s tearing him alive."

 

Thanks for telling me about this movie. Didn't even realize it was released a year ago. Out of coincidence (or maybe not) it is getting shown again in the theater by me. It wasn't last night but today it is. Just got done seeing it. Really eye opening and troubling. Wow.