The Ultimate Super-sized XXL Marriage Thread Plus

[Sponsa-Christi]

1 minute ago, Josh said:

It's a grave sin only mortal if all 3 conditions are met.

Very true, and one of the potential nuances I mentioned might be something like invincible ignorance on the part of the couple. But truly invincible moral cluelessness isn't something we can generally presume of most adults. 

Also, disobeying the Church's marriage laws is, objectively, grave matter. It's not our job to judge the states of other people's souls, but it's not "judging" to refuse to offer congratulations for act which is objectively wrong. 

[Maggyie]

Well you could look at it as congratulating them on their commitment which nevertheless falls short of what it should be. Is being in an invalid but legal marriage better than a casual sex arrangement? I would argue that it is, in the same way that a wedding with canonical problems is a different animal than a polygamous wedding. 

[Peace]

7 minutes ago, Sponsa-Christi said:

Also, disobeying the Church's marriage laws is, objectively, grave matter.

Source?

[Nihil Obstat]

1 hour ago, Peace said:

I really don't know if you sin by attending this wedding. Venial at best. You are under duress.

In terms of duress... I mean, there is social pressure to attend certainly. Even just this thread offers that. But nobody has a gun to my head. I know myself, and I am not weak willed to the extent that some social pressure overrides my will and conscience.

Perhaps you could make the argument that my culpability would be reduced, but just in knowing myself I can say that duress is not involved to that degree.

Just now, Peace said:

Source?

It is a precept of the Church.

1 minute ago, Maggyie said:

Well you could look at it as congratulating them on their commitment which nevertheless falls short of what it should be. Is being in an invalid but legal marriage better than a casual sex arrangement? I would argue that it is, in the same way that a wedding with canonical problems is a different animal than a polygamous wedding. 

I see the public nature of such a wedding to be, especially for a Catholic, a public repudiation of Church teaching. Intended or not. Other things being equal I would say this situation is objectively worse than the couple's previous/current simple adulterous cohabitation. 

[Sponsa-Christi]

5 minutes ago, Maggyie said:

Well you could look at it as congratulating them on their commitment which nevertheless falls short of what it should be. Is being in an invalid but legal marriage better than a casual sex arrangement? I would argue that it is, in the same way that a wedding with canonical problems is a different animal than a polygamous wedding. 

Yes, this might play in as another above-mentioned nuance in some situations. But just because this might be something to consider in some situations doesn't mean it can be used as a blanket justification for attendance at all invalid weddings.

E.g., a situation where two Catholics who were just baptized to make grandma happy but were raised with no religious training whatsoever---and who already have children together, and for whom it might have been a long journey just to realize that committing to each other is important---choose to marry civilly is very different from one where someone raised in a devout Catholic household marries civilly as part of a conscious choice to reject Church teachings. 

[Peace]

22 minutes ago, Nihil Obstat said:

It is a precept of the Church.

I dunno. That list seems to vary depending on who you ask. Source? 

If you look at paragraphs 2041 to 2043 of the Catechism you will notice 5 precepts, and marriage laws ain't one of them.

I am not saying you should go. That's up to you but it ain't like you are about to boil someone's rabbit here. 

Let's say someone violates precept 2, and does not confess a mortal sin within a year. When he finally goes to confession, now he has to confess two mortal sins, because not confessing violated precept 2?

I dunno about all that. But I could be wrong. I would like to see a source, but I will try to find it myself.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Peace

[Nihil Obstat]

The sixth precept is to obey the Church's laws regarding marriage.

[Peace]

2 minutes ago, Nihil Obstat said:

The sixth precept is to obey the Church's laws regarding marriage.

I dunno about that. Why does the Catechism leave it out? Just for kicks?

[Sponsa-Christi]

@Peace I also always learned "obey the Church's marriage laws" as a precept of the Church. But you're right, it's (weirdly) not in that section of the Catechism. 

But when you're questioning whether disobeying the Church's marriage laws is grave matter, do you mean just the act of entering into an invalid marriage per se (like, a Catholic marrying someone civilly "on paper" for immigration purposes?), or are you talking about marriage in the normal full sense of the term?

Because even apart from whether or not obeying the Church's marriage laws is a precept of the Church, a normal invalid marriage is grave matter from a moral theology standpoint. A couple in an invalid marriage are not actually married at all in the Church's eyes, so if they engage in "the marital act" while not actually married, then this is the sin of fornication (or adultery in the case of some second weddings), which itself is grave matter even apart from any other consideration. 

[Nihil Obstat]

It is 'not for me to know' why the last two precepts were neglected.   but the Catechism is not and never claimed to be an entirely exhaustive source, to my understanding.

[CatherineM]

I just read on Facebook that the Pope said today most marriages are invalid. Something I've said for a long time. 

[Kateri89]

I once declined to attend a same-sex wedding.  They were friends with my sister and I didn't know them at all but I was visiting from out of town so they told her to invite me.  My sister was uncomfortable telling them the real reason why I wouldn't go so she made up some story but if I had to tell them directly, I'd tell them that as much as I appreciate their kindness and consideration in inviting me, I couldn't in good conscience attend a wedding which is contrary to my religious beliefs.

I realize that this is not on the same level as your situation Nihil but I should also add that I have a gay cousin and I've wondered what will happen if someday he decides to get "married".  I would have to decline that as well and I have a feeling it would cause big problems in my family.  It's not an easy decision but I would be as polite as possible and tell them the truth.

 

[Nihil Obstat]

Ok, I will start responding to a few posts in greater depth now. If I do not reply to your post and you think I should, unless you are Anomaly, please let me know because I probably just missed it.

[Peace]

2 hours ago, Nihil Obstat said:

It is 'not for me to know' why the last two precepts were neglected.   but the Catechism is not and never claimed to be an entirely exhaustive source, to my understanding.

Not in the Catechism. Sounds like a perfectly good loophole to me. No mortal sin because you didn't know.

[Nihil Obstat]

3 hours ago, Peace said:

Hmm. If a news reporter attended to report on the wedding, would that be participation? I don't think that being there in and of itself is an endorsement.

I think the situation of a news reporter introduces irrelevant variables into the equation. Attending in a professional capacity in order to work in an occupation that is public by nature, I think that affects moral considerations with regards to attendance and the message that is sent thereby.

3 hours ago, IgnatiusofLoyola said:

I'm sympathetic to Nihil's family dilemma. It must be a big deal to him or he wouldn't have posted about it.

I'm also not sure that a family wedding is the best place to make a theological point. Love for family should be the guiding principle. No one is going to be impressed by a statement of faith that consists of not attending a wedding. If anything, it could give a bad impression of the Roman Catholic Church to all the non-Catholics (and non-practicing Catholics) in attendance. Whether the wedding is valid or not, if you care about the couple and don't want to make a scene at their wedding, I'd vote for laying low and saying nothing. You don't have to make grand statements about supporting the wedding, either. Just say nothing, or say that you hope they are happy and any other non-theological statements you can make without lying.

I DO like the idea of only attending the reception, however. Is there ANY way you could pull this off without being blatant about it? To me at least, a wedding reception is a secular event, separate from the wedding. I assume that if the couple had held a party celebrating their marriage that was completely separate from the wedding, you would have attended.

I'm really sorry you're facing this dilemma, Nihil. I'll pray for you. Unfortunately, I have years of personal experience dealing with a difficult family--including people not attending weddings of other family members on the basis of beliefs and principles. Heck, my mother-in-law didn't even attend MY wedding, even though, (on its face, at least),  it was completely in line with all the Catholic rules, including Bishop permissions, etc. etc.

Hang in there! <hugs>

I agree that a wedding is not the time to make a theological point, but I do not believe that this is what I am doing. Both attending and not attending have moral implications and either choice is a conscious decision on my part. If anything, to attend sends a stronger message because of the public nature of the event and due to the fact that not attending is, more strictly speaking, a lack of action whereas attending is very much an act on my part.

I do not really expect, nor do I need other guests to understand or be impressed by my decision. Frankly I do not think anybody in my family will agree with my choice. Literally not one. However I am very concerned for the soul of the person whose wedding this is, and in the end this person is forcing me to make this choice. Do I attend a public event which is contrary to the teachings of the Church this person has abandoned and in which I believe unconditionally? Or do I follow my conscience, decline to attend, and express to this person my grave and abiding fear for the state of their soul?

It will certainly not be a grand statement. Ideally I would not want anyone to know. Ideally even the couple getting married would not even know I did not come. But such a situation is not realistic, because this is a family, and we are all local to each other.

I forget if I posted this already. I will attend the reception if offered, but I do not believe that will remain an option.

I appreciate your sympathy, Iggy.  I am sure you understand family drama on a much more intimate level than I do.

3 hours ago, CatherineM said:

I have attended weddings that made me uncomfortable. I've refused to participate in them. I have only refused to attend gay marriages. In all cases I've attended the receptions. If I love someone, I want to wish them well, and complicated marriages need all the help they can get. I won't attend a wedding where the marriage can never be blessed by the Church, but attend those that could possibly be blessed in the future with the couple taking care of their paperwork. 

I wish this couple nothing but good, but unfortunately, both for them and for me in different ways, what is best is absolutely contrary to what they believe they want. Because again, this is not a marriage. This is not simply a paperwork issue. This is a marriage which is invalid several times over, and any kind of reconciliation with the Church will take serious effort and major changes in lifestyle. This may as well be a homosexual marriage, although it is not.

3 hours ago, McM RSCJ said:

Some questions to ponder as you decide. . . . Or you may have better questions. . . .

1.  What do you hope to achieve by not going?

• If your answer is you hope they will understand you do not believe they will be married, then isn't it possible you have already made them aware that is your belief?
• If you hope to make clear you choose your belief that God does not consider them married over their belief they are indeed marrying, isn't it possible you have already made that clear to them?

2.  You are praying through the intercession of St. Monica.  Have you thought about having a prayerful imaginative conversation with her?  You could ask her if she ruptured family ties with Augustine during those long years?  Why or why not?

3.  Why do you base your decision on your priest's approach?  Can you come to inner freedom and peace in your decision, on the basis of the prompting of your own conscience?

4.  Finally, if you think God wants you to do this, what image or understanding of God are you invoking?  And how can you know that God has not, in his unconditional love and providential care for each of them, brought them into one another's lives as pure gift?

What do I hope to achieve? For myself, nothing. This is not what I want nor does it make me happy. This is a question of living in accordance with Church teaching and my conscience which is formed by it. I will certainly try to have the couple understand my reasons for not attending, however whether they understand or not is immaterial if they persist in carrying out this event. In addition, this is a case where presumably the Catholic half of this couple does know what the Church teaches, therefore does know what I believe, and is choosing to follow through with this anyway. Neither is this an acceptable state of affairs.

"Imaginative conversation" with St. Monica, thank you but no. Sounds like an excellent way to project my own preferences, which are irrelevant and generally unreliable.

In terms of my decisions being based on my priest. Some time ago I made a conscious decision that I will trust my priests' pastoral guidance. Specifically, these priests of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter, because in my experience thus far they are trustworthy men with a great love for the Church and Her teachings. So in general I have decided that for myself and my family, when we have difficult moral and religious questions we will bring them to our priests, and consider obedience to their guidance as being in accordance with God's will for us. Within reason of course, because I harbour no illusions that these men are perfect as Christ was. In addition to that, these men are appointed by my bishop as my pastors, and all things being equal I believe that I owe them my obedience in that capacity. They do have legitimate authority over me, and I am attempting to recognize that.

So when my priest teaches me, I listen. I have made a serious effort in my life to do as they have taught.

And yes, when I live in this manner, with this concept of obedience, my conscience is exceptionally clear. This attitude has so far not led me wrong even for a moment.

For the last bit, all I know is this. God cannot contradict Himself, therefore He cannot contradict His own laws. I know, objectively, that this union flatly contradicts God's Law. In that respect, further analysis is not required.

2 hours ago, Maggyie said:

That's a good point Peace. A case can be made that attending a wedding is not necessarily an endorsement. Is there any official teaching (like, document level) on this?

Fr Z provides the following advice (in part)

QUAERITUR: What is our goal in approaching these difficult wedding situations?

We want to stand up for the truth, proclaim the beauty of the Catholic position, remain firm in our own faith, and avoid causing scandal. We want the bride and the groom, if Catholic, to see their wedding as a means of their own sanctification. We want those who are lapsed from the faith to return to a regular practice of it, and those who are outside of the Church to enter Her loving embrace. We want to keep our families and friends close and supportive of each other. We want to avoid tensions and stress and rather enjoy the time of the wedding as a graced time of happiness and love. That’s a pretty tall order.

We need to honestly ask ourselves some questions:

What would it mean if I attended this wedding? What would people think (especially and primarily my children, my spouse, my close family, the bride and groom)? What would avoiding this wedding mean? What would people think/conclude? Will my actions (attending or avoiding) help to draw anyone closer to Jesus Christ? If the marriage situation is less-than ideal, is it something that can be later fixed (e.g., a baptized Catholic couple marrying outside the Church, but who later could have their marriage sanated, versus a same-sex couple who’s “marriage” can never be recognized as such)?

linky http://wdtprs.com/blog/2015/07/ask-father-can-i-attend-this-invalid-wedding/

 

Yes, I read Fr. Z's article a few times, both the last time this came up, and more recently. With references to my priest's own teaching to his parish, I do not have any doubt as to the correct choice in this instance.

3 minutes ago, Peace said:

Not in the Catechism. Sounds like a perfectly good loophole to me. No mortal sin because you didn't know.

In either case, the question of precepts in the Catechism is a distraction. Whether or not they are enumerated in that manner, it is clear to me that going against the Church's teachings with regards to marriage is objectively grave matter. Full knowledge will always be subjective, but in this case it is not relevant.