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Number of mass shootings in 2019 per country

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fides' Jack
43 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said:

The difference is:

Drug overdose and suicide involve something chosen directly or indirectly. 

Mass shootings (gun violence) involves straight out murder of innocent people including children at times.  This is not pro life!  Be it one dead or fifty dead.  Be it one mass shooting or five hundred or more.

No matter the statistics, false or not, I near on go into shock every time I heard of mass murder in the USA. These incidents are surreal, bizarre.  God forbid the day I do not go into near on a state of shock.

I have heard the argument that guns do not kill, people do.  It is guns for the purpose of murder which people choosing murder can apparently easily acquire in the USA - in order to commit mass murder of innocent people and children.

If the above is correct, what a terrible decision America is facing in my book.

Believe me, I understand what you're saying.  I truly believe conservatives understand the talking points of the left.  But I also know that the opposite is not true.

Annually, there are about 11,000 non-suicide gun-related deaths in the U.S.  That's really, really bad, right?

Annually, estimates place gun-related lives saved at between 500,000 and 3,000,000 in the U.S.  

If you want to save lives, we should have a law requiring ordinary folks to train and own firearms.  We'll take that 11,000 down substantially.  We should also get rid of gun-free areas and events.  Let people carry, let a lot of people carry, and even mental cases will think twice about attacking innocent people.

Also, guns are pretty difficult to get right now.  You can't just walk into a store and buy a gun.  It's a long process.  In a lot of states you can't even get one the same day.  Also, guns aren't created for murder - a lot of them are built for killing, sure, but most gun owners will be the first to stand up for life, not against it.

Lastly, there is a big difference between one dead and fifty dead.  The difference is 49 people who's lives were saved.

32 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said:

 

I am filled with horror when I hear of mass murder in the USA, which does seem to happen with regularity.   It is the violent death of innocents that shocks as well as the regularity of the terrible crime, the refusal/inability to address the whole problem effectively.

  These are people and children being murdered and apparently in the USA upholding the right to own guns is more important than human life to some? A lack of meaningful empathy?

......next step is? Or is it already fait accompli?

Our right to bear arms is one of the only things that's keeping our right to free speech alive right now.  In Canada, for instance, there is now legislated speech.  And people don't see how dangerous that is.  Say goodbye to all of western culture, if you buy into that.  Yes, freedom is absolutely worth the cost, and it does cost a lot.  Millions have died to preserve freedom, and we're basically telling them they died in vain.  How arrogant we are in the west, now.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

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dUSt

http://catholicphilly.com/2019/08/archbishop-chaput-column/gilroy-el-paso-dayton-and-columbine/

"I buried some of the young Columbine victims 20 years ago. I sat with their families, watched them weep, listened to their anger, and saw the human wreckage that gun violence leaves behind. The experience taught me that assault rifles are not a birthright, and the Second Amendment is not a Golden Calf. I support thorough background checks and more restrictive access to guns for anyone seeking to purchase them.  

But it also taught me that only a fool can believe that “gun control” will solve the problem of mass violence. The people using the guns in these loathsome incidents are moral agents with twisted hearts. And the twisting is done by the culture of sexual anarchy, personal excess, political hatreds, intellectual dishonesty, and perverted freedoms that we’ve systematically created over the past half-century. 

So I’ll say it again, 20 years later. Treating the symptoms in a culture of violence doesn’t work. We need to look deeper. Until we’re willing to do that, nothing fundamental will change." - Archbishop Charles Chaput

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fides' Jack
1 hour ago, dUSt said:

http://catholicphilly.com/2019/08/archbishop-chaput-column/gilroy-el-paso-dayton-and-columbine/

"I buried some of the young Columbine victims 20 years ago. I sat with their families, watched them weep, listened to their anger, and saw the human wreckage that gun violence leaves behind. The experience taught me that assault rifles are not a birthright, and the Second Amendment is not a Golden Calf. I support thorough background checks and more restrictive access to guns for anyone seeking to purchase them.  

But it also taught me that only a fool can believe that “gun control” will solve the problem of mass violence. The people using the guns in these loathsome incidents are moral agents with twisted hearts. And the twisting is done by the culture of sexual anarchy, personal excess, political hatreds, intellectual dishonesty, and perverted freedoms that we’ve systematically created over the past half-century. 

So I’ll say it again, 20 years later. Treating the symptoms in a culture of violence doesn’t work. We need to look deeper. Until we’re willing to do that, nothing fundamental will change." - Archbishop Charles Chaput

Beautiful, and I appreciate it.  Sometimes I get caught up defending conservative principles and I forget that the real problem is godlessness and absolutely nothing is going to make it much better as long as people have no fear of God and no virtue.

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BarbaraTherese

 

Rationalisations.

 

3 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

If you want to save lives, we should have a law requiring ordinary folks to train and own firearms.  We'll take that 11,000 down substantially.  We should also get rid of gun-free areas and events.  Let people carry, let a lot of people carry, and even mental cases will think twice about attacking innocent people.

I am almost in a state of shock again at the above.  I find it almost unbelievable.  It almost seems as if a lot of people in the USA have lost it and are intent on killing each other and see nothing wrong with it.  What happened to "Thou shalt not kill"?

Quote

Let people carry, let a lot of people carry, and even mental cases will think twice about attacking innocent people.

I am a so called "mental case" (your term) and suffer bipolar disorder and have done so, undiagnosed until my late twenties, probably since my teenage years.  I am now 74 years of age.  Your sweeping generalisation is totally inaccurate and presents a false image of a sufferer of mental illness.  Yours is a cruel stigmatising image that brings about much suffering to innocent people who suffer terribly every single day.  Stigma is an additional suffering and the biggest hurdle a sufferer must overcome to live an ordinary life in the community.  Stigma triggers for the sufferer other social problems too..........all over and above the terrible suffering of the illness itself..

24 minutes ago, Seven77 said:

Why do we insist on political solutions for answers. Guns, politics = idols.

Godlessness brings about a state of lack of Hope. This is a terrible evil bringing more evil in its wake, including using gun violence to express its evil self.

How can we bring people to God? Part of the solution has to be to do all possible to stop gun violence until we can.  Politics can bring this about.

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BarbaraTherese
3 hours ago, dUSt said:

Treating the symptoms in a culture of violence doesn’t work. We need to look deeper.

I very much agree with the Archbishop.  Tightening gun laws is a symptom of a much deeper problem, a spiritual problem.  To my mind, if there is some way to protect innocent lives from being murdered until the spiritual problem is effectively addressed, then that is the way to go is common sense.

I am not stating that very tight gun laws will totally prevent mass murder.  I am an Australian and our gun laws are very tight and mass murder is unusual, although not totally prevented.  Our state government in Sth Aust is looking at tightening state gun laws even further since recent events in the USA and a frightening cache of weapons being confiscated in a residence in the Adelaide hills.  

https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/6312367/sa-govt-to-consider-tighter-gun-laws/

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dominicansoul
6 hours ago, little2add said:

My apologies,  to Josh, you and the forum.  sometimes I rub people the wrong way.  

 I never meant to provoke 

You’re not the one who should be apologizing...

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BarbaraTherese
4 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

  In Canada, for instance, there is now legislated speech

What is meant by legislated speech, please?  The term is new to me and I failed to find a definition through Google.

Edited by BarbaraTherese

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fides' Jack
1 hour ago, BarbaraTherese said:

Politics can bring this about.

That's a big part of the problem, right there.  Politics can't bring anything about except more bureaucracy.  People need to turn to God.

38 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said:

What is meant by legislated speech, please?  The term is new to me and I failed to find a definition through Google.

Sure - there are now laws in Canada that require you to say certain things.  You have to, by law, refer to people by their chosen pronouns.  Legislated speech has been a line that everybody knows you don't ever, ever cross.  Until now, apparently... 

We are witnessing the beginning of the downfall of western society.  And I don't think that's overly dramatic.

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BarbaraTherese
3 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

That's a big part of the problem, right there.  Politics can't bring anything about except more bureaucracy.  People need to turn to God.

If more bureaucracy will help to save innocent lives including the innocent lives of children, then I am for it.

People do need to turn to God.  Are you really prepared to not do anything to help to stop the mass murders until they do.

Quote

 

  4 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

  In Canada, for instance, there is now legislated speech

 

What is meant by legislated speech, please?  The term is new to me and I failed to find a definition through Google.

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fides' Jack
1 hour ago, BarbaraTherese said:

I am almost in a state of shock again at the above.  I find it almost unbelievable.  It almost seems as if a lot of people in the USA have lost it and are intent on killing each other and see nothing wrong with it.  What happened to "Thou shalt not kill"?

The U.S. is unlike any country before in the history of the world, very much including Australia.  We have more guns than people here.  If guns were a rare thing, I would absolutely agree that there could potentially be some benefit to limiting guns or enacting stricter gun laws.  But I'm not sure I would want to live in that world, anyway.  Saying I want more guns doesn't mean I want to kill.  That's ridiculous.

I want to add here, it seems like you're saying pro-gun people are the people who are intent on killing each other.  If that's not the case, then you can ignore this statement.  The conservatives here, aka "gun people", are actually the safest people you could have around (and if you understood the situation you'd want to have them around).  It's no coincidence that most gun deaths occur in very left-leaning and large cities.  It's the godlessness problem again, and as a general rule, pro-gun people are more religious than anti-gun people.  At least here in the U.S.

4 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said:

What is meant by legislated speech, please?  The term is new to me and I failed to find a definition through Google.

Already answered that question.  Please refer to above.

1 hour ago, BarbaraTherese said:

I am a so called "mental case" (your term) and suffer bipolar disorder and have done so, undiagnosed until my late twenties, probably since my teenage years.  I am now 74 years of age.  Your sweeping generalisation is totally inaccurate and presents a false image of a sufferer of mental illness.  Yours is a cruel stigmatising image that brings about much suffering to innocent people who suffer terribly every single day.  Stigma is an additional suffering and the biggest hurdle a sufferer must overcome to live an ordinary life in the community.  Stigma triggers for the sufferer other social problems too..........all over and above the terrible suffering of the illness itself..

I'm not talking about you.  Obviously you pretty much despise guns.  I seriously doubt you would ever go shooting up anybody.  In fact, I think our laws on gun ownership are too strict as they are, especially regarding letting "mental cases" own them.  Because the government can and will define that however they want, and that's a really bad thing.

So yes, I used the term "mental case", but you are wrong to assume I would include you in that umbrella.

Edited by fides' Jack

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little2add
6 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

his is an absolute lie.  Complete propaganda.  We haven't had 249 mass shootings this year.  The only way you ca

Actually Jack is correct, so far this year 2019 there has been 255 deaths due to mass shootings.

another disturbing fact is that nearly all the shooters are white males.  

Suicide is a major national public health issue in the United States. In 2016, there were 44,965 recorded suicides, up from 42,773 in 2014, according to the CDC's National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS).

National Drug Overdose Deaths—Number Among All Ages, by Gender, 1999-2017. More than 70,200 Americans died from drug overdoses in 2017, including illicit drugs and prescription opioids—a 2-fold increase in a decade.


In the space of less than 14 hours, 29 people were shot dead in two massacres, in two different cities across the U.S. The shooting in Dayton, Ohio, in which 10 people were killed and 26 were injured, was the nation’s 251st mass shooting. 

Only a day later, the grim tally now stands at 255.

Total mass shooting DEATHS, so far in the US is:        255
Total DRUG OVERDOSE deaths for 2017 is:            70,200
Total SUICIDE deaths for 2016 is:                             44,965

In my option suicide deaths may be underreported, in order to not add to the grief of there loved (family) ones.

                                

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BarbaraTherese

 

 

3 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

Saying I want more guns doesn't mean I want to kill.  That's ridiculous.

I certainly did not state the above.

I think that now we have possibly established that we disagree and we can at least agree to disagree, rather than continue to go round in circles, huh?

You still have not answered my question please.  What is "legislated speech".  I do not understand what you mean by "In Canada, for instance, there is now legislated speech".  Do you mean legislation to prevent hate speech?  We have such legislation too in Australia.

6 minutes ago, little2add said:

Only a day later, the grim tally now stands at 255.

Total mass shooting DEATHS, so far in the US is:        255
Total DRUG OVERDOSE deaths for 2017 is:            70,200
Total SUICIDE deaths for 2016 is:                             44,965

In my option suicide deaths may be underreported, in order to not add to the grief of there loved (family) ones.

I think that the above statistics and your opinion are probably quite correct.  Each of the three statistics are social cancers, each needing to be addressed.

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little2add

Over 70,000 deaths last year in the US caused by opioid-related overdoses with 80% of the illegal drugs coming from Central America.   Trump is absolutely right about a  crisis at our southern border’s 

 I don’t know if the border fence would affectively stop all the heroin coming into this country but it’s worth a try.  

The United States is grappling with one of its worst-ever drug crises. More than nine hundred people a week die from opioid-related overdoses, and some experts say the death toll may not peak for years. Meanwhile, millions more Americans suffer from opioid addiction.

 

Edited by little2add

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fides' Jack
2 hours ago, little2add said:

Actually Jack is correct, so far this year 2019 there has been 255 deaths due to mass shootings.                                

I personally prefer to use the government definition of a "mass shooting" as it makes more sense than the GVA definition.  Under the GVA definition, which includes all those I brought up above, there have been more than 255 now.  In the government definition, it includes all instances where more than 3 people die from gunshot wounds.  So far there have been 17 mass shooting this year, under that definition.  

But I agree, there are more evil problems we need to deal with that are more pressing.

2 hours ago, BarbaraTherese said:

You still have not answered my question please.  What is "legislated speech".  I do not understand what you mean by "In Canada, for instance, there is now legislated speech".  Do you mean legislation to prevent hate speech?  We have such legislation too in Australia.

I absolutely answered your question.  Legislated speech is legislation that requires you to speak a specific way, or with specific words.  Legislation to prevent "hate speech"?  How does your government define hate speech?  That's definitely a slippery slope.  There is no such thing as hate speech in the U.S., and for good reason.  Speech is unlawful if it calls for violence or otherwise calls for action by lying when it directly results in injury (yelling "fire" in a crowded theater is perfectly legal if there's actually a fire).  You can call someone any name you want, and it's legal.  Any government that says you have to refer to someone a certain way because somebody thinks doing otherwise is hate speech is an evil government, and doesn't actually deserve to exist, in my opinion.  

And we're headed there pretty quickly, too.

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