Purgatory And Time

[phatcatholic]

if time does in fact exist in purgatory (i have always understood that it didn't), then it would be "God's time" not "our time." to God, 1,000 years is but a day, and a day 1000 years. his will determines when our suffering in purgatory is ended, and our earthly conception of time (seconds, hours, days, weeks, months, years, ....) could hardly do it justice.

also, some of you have used the existence of the glorified body as proof that time exists in purgatory. but, suffering in purgatory exists before the final judgment (when, if deserving, we will receive our glorified bodies). purgatory exists between the particular judgment (the judgment that occurs immediately upon our death) and the general/final judgment (when all souls approach His throne upon the Second Coming). so, our spirits are purged in purgatory outside of our bodies.

the fact that purgatory exists for an alotted period of time (between the two judgments) could suggest that it is bound by time. but it just seems safer to me to say that it is not bound "by time" as much as it is by "God's will." i suppose my articulation is faulty, but purgatory just seems too far beyond our earthly realm to be adequately defined by our conception of time. but, i suppose this is more a gut feeling then a proposition based on any real arguments.

ah well, just rambling i suppose.....

pax christi,
phatcatholic

Edited July 2, 2004 by phatcatholic

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jul 2 2004, 12:19 PM'] if time does in fact exist in purgatory (i have always understood that it didn't), then it would be "God's time" not "our time." to God, 1,000 years is but a day, and a day 1000 years. his will determines when our suffering in purgatory is ended, and our earthly conception of time (seconds, hours, days, weeks, months, years, ....) could hardly do it justice.

also, some of you have used the existence of the glorified body as proof that time exists in purgatory. but, suffering in purgatory exists before the final judgment (when, if deserving, we will receive our glorified bodies). purgatory exists between the particular judgment (the judgment that occurs immediately upon our death) and the general/final judgment (when all souls approach His throne upon the Second Coming). so, our spirits are purged in purgatory outside of our bodies.

the fact that purgatory exists for an alotted period of time (between the two judgments) could suggest that it is bound by time. but it just seems safer to me to say that it is not bound "by time" as much as it is by "God's will." i suppose my articulation is faulty, but purgatory just seems too far beyond our earthly realm to be adequately defined by our conception of time. but, i suppose this is more a gut feeling then a proposition based on any real arguments.

ah well, just rambling i suppose.....

pax christi,
phatcatholic [/quote]
God's time would be Kairos...a certain, higher and fuller concept of time. Something both instantaneous and infinite at once. That's what I always understood Kairos to be...something like...hmmm...everything that would ever happen is happening now, but now is being stretched over eternity...

If I visualize it, it would be something like a time-elapsed photo...an entire period of time (eternity, in this case) squeezed into a single shot (a moment).

Bah...that's just my imagination of it.

[ThyWillBeDone]

Raphael I like the photo analogy never heard that one. One of the ways I heard it explain was like a time line. Imagine every action takes place at a certain spot on that line. We are on the line so we only see the spot on the line where we are. But God is above the line (beyond time) so he can see the whole line so he sees every spot on the line, which would be every action that ever took place all at the same moment. But I think I like you photo analogy alot better, so much simpler, thanks
Chris

[qfnol31]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jul 2 2004, 11:19 AM']if time does in fact exist in purgatory (i have always understood that it didn't), then it would be "God's time" not "our time." to God, 1,000 years is but a day, and a day 1000 years. his will determines when our suffering in purgatory is ended, and our earthly conception of time (seconds, hours, days, weeks, months, years, ....) could hardly do it justice.[/quote]
I would have to agree that Purgatory's time is most likely not the same type of time that we envision it to be here on Earth.

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jul 2 2004, 11:19 AM']also, some of you have used the existence of the glorified body as proof that time exists in purgatory. but, suffering in purgatory exists before the final judgment (when, if deserving, we will receive our glorified bodies). purgatory exists between the particular judgment (the judgment that occurs immediately upon our death) and the general/final judgment (when all souls approach His throne upon the Second Coming). so, our spirits are purged in purgatory outside of our bodies.[/quote]
I personally was actually hoping to use the glorified bodies as proof of time in Heaven. In that case you would have time before you went to Purgatory (Earth of course) and time in Heaven (we change when we receive our resurrected bodies). If Purgatory was outside of time then we would go from time (Earth) to no time (Purgatory) back to time (Heaven). Every time we change, we're inside of time. If we have the potential to change, then we must be inside of time.

I like the example of a rock. It may not change, but it sure does have the potential to change. That's how we know that it's in time. The same is true for all things. As long as there is the potential to change, the thing must be inside of time.

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jul 2 2004, 11:19 AM']the fact that purgatory exists for an alotted period of time (between the two judgments) could suggest that it is bound by time. but it just seems safer to me to say that it is not bound "by time" as much as it is by "God's will." i suppose my articulation is faulty, but purgatory just seems too far beyond our earthly realm to be adequately defined by our conception of time. but, i suppose this is more a gut feeling then a proposition based on any real arguments.[/quote]
I wouldn't suggest that it's bound by time so much as it's inside of time. Purgatory has a beginning and an end. I doubt that it was part of God's original creation, and I also doubt that it will be present until the end of time. I wouldn't ever try to put this time in relation to ours, I know I'd just get too confused. However, we will be purified there and we will suffer, which implies a change. This change then implies that there is time to change.

We got into all of this in my philosophy class when we talked about how our souls are not eternal but rather immortal. The difference is that God is eternal (outside of time) and we are immortal (inside of time, but live forever).

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jul 2 2004, 11:19 AM']ah well, just rambling i suppose.....[/quote]

Nah. Feel free to argue against what I've said.

[Mickey's_Girl]

Cmom--

Thanks SO MUCH for posting that from James Akin! That was *awesome*!!!

MG

[thicke]

[quote name='P3chrmd' date='Jul 2 2004, 12:25 AM']Well we have to remember what Our Lady said at Fatima...to one of the children. When she asked her if one of her friends was in heaven...Mary said "She will be in Purgatory until the end of TIME"[/quote]
Also.....

[quote]THE SABBATINE PRIVILEGE

Our Lady of Mount Carmel has promised to save those who wear the scapular from the fires of Hell. She will also shorten their stay in Purgatory if they should pass from this world still owing some temporal debt of punishment.

This promise is found in a Bull of Pope John XXII. The Blessed Virgin appeared to him and speaking of those who wear the Brown Scapular said

"I, the Mother of grace, shall descend on the [b]Saturday[/b] after their death and whomsoever I shall find in Purgatory, I shall free, so that I may lead them to the holy mountain of life everlasting."[/quote]

How could there be a Saturday in purgatory if time doesn't exist there? Since she says she'll descend from Heaven on a Saturday, it seems to imply the existence of Saturdays in Heaven too. But, maybe she was also using a "simple" explanation for things we humans who are still bound by our Earthly intellects would otherwise not understand.

Edited July 2, 2004 by thicke

[thicke]

Anyone want to get in on a pool for when a question inspired by this thread will get asked in the Q&A section?

[Dave]

That version of the Sabbatine Privilege, where Our Lady will deliver people from purgatory on the Saturday after their death, turned out to be false.

[thicke]

[quote name='Dave' date='Jul 2 2004, 03:33 PM'] That version of the Sabbatine Privilege, where Our Lady will deliver people from purgatory on the Saturday after their death, turned out to be false. [/quote]
Can you provide documentation of that? But, even if it is false, it doesn't change the point of my post...

Edited July 3, 2004 by thicke

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='ThyWillBeDone' date='Jul 2 2004, 01:41 PM'] Raphael I like the photo analogy never heard that one. One of the ways I heard it explain was like a time line. Imagine every action takes place at a certain spot on that line. We are on the line so we only see the spot on the line where we are. But God is above the line (beyond time) so he can see the whole line so he sees every spot on the line, which would be every action that ever took place all at the same moment. But I think I like you photo analogy alot better, so much simpler, thanks
Chris [/quote]
Thanks. You're welcome.

Actually, I used to study quite a bit of physics in junior high and high school...my idea of Kairos is sort of the opposite of what I imagine it would be like to be in the time dialation at the event horizon of a black whole.

Just in case you don't know what that means...time dialation is an at least apparent stretching of time on the edge (event horizon) of a black hole, which would seem to make a moment last eternity, due to the stretching of light by the rip in the space-time continuum.

[qfnol31]

At the same time the object would move into light waves beyond the visible spectrum (meaning radio waves!). It's too bad no one could live long enough to see it all happen!

Just out of curiosity...

If there's no time in Heaven, does that mean that when we get there, we will always have been there? 'Cause if we aren't, then there is a [b]time[/b] when we will become there, so there must be [b]time[/b].

Of course, I'm here now...but I will be there sometime, and I'm not in two places at once (Padre Pio!).

Actually, I dunno how that would work. Would someone who thinks that Heaven and Purgatory are outside of time help me please?

Remember, I think that there's time in both places, just not one similar to what we live here.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Jul 3 2004, 04:13 AM'] At the same time the object would move into light waves beyond the visible spectrum (meaning radio waves!). It's too bad no one could live long enough to see it all happen!

Just out of curiosity...

If there's no time in Heaven, does that mean that when we get there, we will always have been there? 'Cause if we aren't, then there is a [b]time[/b] when we will become there, so there must be [b]time[/b].

Of course, I'm here now...but I will be there sometime, and I'm not in two places at once (Padre Pio!).

Actually, I dunno how that would work. Would someone who thinks that Heaven and Purgatory are outside of time help me please?

Remember, I think that there's time in both places, just not one similar to what we live here. [/quote]
[quote] At the same time the object would move into light waves beyond the visible spectrum (meaning radio waves!).  It's too bad no one could live long enough to see it all happen![/quote]

True, true. Infraradio waves, even. Gotta love that red shift...

[quote]If there's no time in Heaven, does that mean that when we get there, we will always have been there? 'Cause if we aren't, then there is a time when we will become there, so there must be time.[/quote]

Two words, let's see if you can translate: Mysterium Est.

[quote]Of course, I'm here now...but I will be there sometime, and I'm not in two places at once (Padre Pio!).[/quote]

Bilocation would be sweet.

[Aloysius]

[quote]does that mean that when we get there, we will always have been there?[/quote]
that's the very mystery that explains to me the mystery of predestination.

Edited July 3, 2004 by Aloysius

[Philippe]

thinkin that everyone gets to heaven is pure carp... even if u are Catholic your whole life and the last 5 years you fall into mortal sin and stop caring then u will go 2 hell. If you die in a state of mortal sin then you go to hell. When you commit a mortal sin, you kill our soul and u basically excommunicate yourself from the Church. only through confession or a deep want for confession (if your dying) can your soul be revived. dont think to yourself that because you are Catholic but you commit mortal sins you will go to heaven. its just plain carp. We still need that fear of God and by saying to yourself that you are going away is taking that Fear of God away and it is not possible since that is a gift of the holy spirit.

and im spent

[Philippe]

o and the way that relates to purgatory is that... if you go to purgatory, you are going to heaven for sure. You cant go to purgatory and go to Hell. Purgatory is a cleansing process before arriving in Heaven so if you have mortal sin then you wont make it to purgatory because you will go straight to hell.

[Philippe]

we shouldnt be so worried about how long we are in purgatory but instead we should be glad we are there

[blovedwolfofgod]

It is written that a thousand years is as a day and a day is as a thousand years. Time doesnt matter in the grand scheme of eternity. Your in, and because it seems to be a point between heaven and creation, it would be reasonable to say that there is time. Time is a measure of change. In purgatory, you are changing more and more toward perfection. I suppose that this is in itself a form of time. God is timeless because he doesnt change. When we are perfect, do we change? Change to what? I believe that we can only be outside of time once perfection is granted to us by God. But in the end, time doesnt matter. Its purgatory. Your going to heaven eventually.

Furthermore, St. Paul said that he hoped to remain faithful so that he didnt lose his life in the end. This life was his everlasting life. He served God like he was crazy, because he was crazy for God. He said he could lose his life even after life of service. All it takes is a bit of sin at the end to mess it all up.

[XIX]

[quote name='lifeteener' date='Jul 3 2004, 02:23 PM'] we shouldnt be so worried about how long we are in purgatory but instead we should be glad we are there [/quote]
Agree with you 99.9%

Just want to clarify that going striaght to heaven should always be our goal, we shouldn't aim for purgatory. That seems a tad bit like doing just enough to avoid hell. For one thing, if we are holy enough to go to heaven, then we will live a more full life on earth and will also catch more souls. We should also aim as high as possible. Such is God's standard.

Anyways, based on these posts, I would imagine that there is time in purgatory. But it is completely different from that one earth... :ph34r:

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 3 2004, 01:37 PM'] that's the very mystery that explains to me the mystery of predestination. [/quote]
See, I just have a hard time believing that when I get there, I'll have always been there. I can understand that I was always going to get there, but not that I've always been there.

Plus, what would happen then if I become a part of eternity (which is outside of time). Does that mean that I won't ever do anything once I'm in Heaven, but I'll sit there motionless doing nothing?

St. Thomas Aquinas says that Heaven will be the epitome of happiness for us because we will spend our time contemplating God. Sounds like fun to me!

[Aloysius]

yeah we'll contemplate God definitely. The way eternal time works in Heaven is a grand mystery, we can never understand it. Once we're in heaven the state of our soul cannot be changed, just like once we're in hell the state of our soul couldn't be changed. I donno, the mystery of the nature of Eternal Time in Heaven even though I don't fully understand it explains to me the mystery of predestination which I also don't fully understand. One mystery explains another, even if you don't quite understand either of em