Liberal Catholic Conspiracy Theory

[Sinner]

It has been postulated that many liturgical abuses have been promulgated by "liberal catholics" who want women and married men in the priesthood, an increased role/authority for laity, advancement of the homosexual position, a decreased importance of the eucharist (reduction to a symbol of Christ's Body and Blood), etc.

Could it be that we have been slowly duped by taking Communion in the hand, female altar servers, "Eucharistic Ministers" giving Communion and Blessings, Communion at the back of the Church, Communion in less than precious containers, "Homilies" by laity, etc., etc., etc.? Or have all of these things just "happened" independently of each other?

[crusader1234]

Since I'm a teenager I haven't really noticed the liberalization. If I look back I can see that there have been radical changes before my birth, but I'm not so sure its a conspiracy.

[BurkeFan]

I'd say that it's possible, maybe even more than possible, but I'd stop short of saying that there's a bonafide conspiracy or organized, concerted effort. I think it's just a bunch of angry people who have a common direction but push and shove at their own pace to their own rhythm. I wouldn't give it the credit of being organized. I think that if it was organized, then it would not be such a faltering movement. Anyhow, the demonic is, I think, never organized, for chaos is a demonic principle.

[BurkeFan]

[quote name='crusader1234' date='Jul 4 2004, 10:11 PM'] Since I'm a teenager I haven't really noticed the liberalization. If I look back I can see that there have been radical changes before my birth, but I'm not so sure its a conspiracy. [/quote]
I don't know how it is up in Canada, but there are definite attempts that I have seen here, especially in my Jesuit high school and college, and assorted parishes in the Archdiocese of Detroit. One parish right near where I live in Michigan introduced a number of liturgical changes which the priest claimed were orthodox and should have already been implimented... such as standing at the consecration... never kneeling during Mass, etc.
There are those still carrying the liberal Catholic bastion at my college, especially the Theology department, led by Ron Modras, who absolutely hates JPII and thinks he's the "worst pope ever."

[Norseman82]

Well, I do know of Call to Action and various groups like Dignity and Catholics for a Free Choice, but I don't know how co-ordinated their activities are.

What seems to be happening to me is that the "children of the 60s" have achived tenure and positions of influence in the Church.

[ironmonk]

Yes, it's happening, but they will fail... the heretics always loose, they're trying to go against God... Jesus promised it wouldn't be overcome.

I believe Christ... unlike the liberals.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Archbishop 10-K]

There IS a liberal movement, but as ironmonk said, it will eventually fail. It's been said many times, and I won't hestitate to say it again, "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it [the Church."

[IcePrincessKRS]

I don't know about concentrated conspiracy, but there are definately people/groups out there trying their darndest to liberalize and change the Church to what they want (women priests, gay marriage, married priests, teachings on abortion and contraception changed, etc.).

[Crusader_4]

I wouldnt say that things that the Church has being doing recently are "part of a conspiracy" i.e. Female Altar servers, or other such matters. However outside of the Church in a sense definatly the media, certain UN organizations and even countries have it in for the Vatican. To them the first thing they would love to see is the Vatican get annhilated or dissapear of the face of the map because it is only the Vatican in many cases that presents an alternative to this Culture of Death. So outside there Church i think there are take a look at CFFC if you dont believe me. (Catholics For a Free Choice = Evil)

[crusader1234]

My Jesuit highschool and my Church (up here in good ole Canada) are fairly conservative. My highschool is a little more liberal on 'dirty dancing' than you might expect, but its conservative in most other respects. My Church is very conservative in comparison with the examples of liberal Churches here on PM, but we do have female alterservers and acolytes. Maybe that is too liberal?

[BurkeFan]

[quote name='crusader1234' date='Jul 4 2004, 11:34 PM'] My Jesuit highschool and my Church (up here in good ole Canada) are fairly conservative.  My highschool is a little more liberal on 'dirty dancing' than you might expect, but its conservative in most other respects.  My Church is very conservative in comparison with the examples of liberal Churches here on PM, but we do have female alterservers and acolytes.  Maybe that is too liberal? [/quote]
My high school was wacky in theology. For example, I was taught in a Theology course that Jesus had literal, biological brothers and sisters. Ie, that Mary was not ever-virgin.

Edit: Girl altar servers, or, as Fr. Kellers calls them, girl altar-boys, I think are not a huge threat, since the Pope seems to approve.

Edited July 5, 2004 by BurkeFan

[crusader1234]

Yeah our Jesuits DEFINATELY dont agree with that. One of them is sort of out there in how he preaches and dresses, but he is "kosher" theologically.

I don't have any problem with a woman handing me the Eucharist or following a girl around the Church.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='BurkeFan' date='Jul 5 2004, 01:39 AM'] My high school was wacky in theology. For example, I was taught in a Theology course that Jesus had literal, biological brothers and sisters. Ie, that Mary was not ever-virgin.

Edit: Girl altar servers, or, as Fr. Kellers calls them, girl altar-boys, I think are not a huge threat, since the Pope seems to approve. [/quote]
That's heresy bro... Report it to the Bishop... then to the Archbishop... then to the Vatican.

I wish Catholics were Catholic.

[b]Sirach 4:28 [/b]Even to the death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you.

Fight for Truth... even when the world is against you.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[Iacobus]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Jul 4 2004, 10:43 PM'] I believe Christ... unlike the liberals. [/quote]
I take offense at that. I am VERY liberal in my thought and actions. However, I belive in God and I like my Mass "clean." So yeh.

As to a Conspiracy, I highly doubt it. There are some bad apples of course but a univeral conspiracy is nuts. The Church is more likly to become more orthadax with the newer priests.

"Liberal Catholic Conspiracy" sounds like a Catholic Jack Chick.

[BurkeFan]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Jul 4 2004, 11:45 PM'] That's heresy bro... Report it to the Bishop... then to the Archbishop... then to the Vatican.

I wish Catholics were Catholic.

[b]Sirach 4:28 [/b]Even to the death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you.

Fight for Truth... even when the world is against you.

God Bless,
ironmonk [/quote]
If my high school was in St. Louis, I'd take your advice immediately. But, it's Detroit. And, the school is under the control of the Jesuits, and when I was there, my attempts to bring the situation to light, thouogh maybe not the most tactful, were slammed down pretty quickly by the administration.

[Crusader_4]

Yea i go to the same school with Crusader1234 and it is actually very conservative i would even venture to say its the most conservative Catholic high School in Canada and definatly in Manitoba without question.

[crusader1234]

Jacob, I think he's getting more at radical Catholic's that want eveything turned over. I do agree though - by definition 'liberal' doesnt = nonchristian. Radical liberalists who not only accept change but lobby for it are just as bad as radical traditionalists who totally reject and lobby against change. I am all for change, so long as its Ex-Cathedra and from God and the Pope.

Peace,

Rich

[ironmonk]

[quote name='BurkeFan' date='Jul 5 2004, 01:52 AM'] If my high school was in St. Louis, I'd take your advice immediately. But, it's Detroit. And, the school is under the control of the Jesuits, and when I was there, my attempts to bring the situation to light, thouogh maybe not the most tactful, were slammed down pretty quickly by the administration. [/quote]
I'm sorry to hear it's so bad....

With the internet, you can go directly to the Bishop. If you need help getting emails, just let me know.

It's a shame that there are such bad jesuits trashing the order.


Iacobus... you never answered my question on a past thread about what makes you think that you're "very liberal"... so I'm left at only speculation... and [b]if [/b]it's [b]anything[/b]like I speculate, then you've got a lot to learn about Catholicism. "Very liberal" and Catholic do not go together. It's impossible to be a real Catholic and "Very liberal" - That is just the way it is. Change for Christ or don't.

What I see as liberal:[list]
[*]people on the fence about abortion or for it
[*]people supporting birth control
[*]people supporting ssa marriage
[*]people wanting to keep God out of public view
[*]People who support legalizing drugs because so many people do them
[*]people who support pre-marital sex
[*]people who are into the orgy thing and wife swapping
[*]people who think that the Church is an evil empire
[/list]

If you don't support any of those things, then I wouldn't say you're a liberal... and are Catholic.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Aloysius]

I think some people are too attached to the word "liberal" because of their social and economic stances. while I may disagree with those stances, so long as the one who has them believes to be the best way to bring about Social Justice, then those stances are within the realm of Catholic Teaching. Therefore, I propose we stick to the terms "orthodox" and "heterodox"

if you substitute "heterodox" everywhere you see "liberal" in these posts, you will be less offended.

Of course if ironmonk is correct in the above bullets (or wait, that's no longer politically correct they can't be called "bullets" anymore! :rotfl:) then "heterodox" would fit you and you might be offended. But if you recognize abortion is an issue that is so much bigger than any economic issue and takes ultimate precedence over any issue as it is the greatest evil of our time, and are not in line with any of the above bullets in ironmonk's post (which I assume you are not) then you can replace "liberal" in the above posts with "heterodox" (which is basically being theologically liberal as opposed to orthodox which is theologically conservative) and you'll be fine. So long as you're not heterodox.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 5 2004, 01:33 AM'] I think some people are too attached to the word "liberal" because of their social and economic stances.  while I may disagree with those stances, so long as the one who has them believes to be the best way to bring about Social Justice, then those stances are within the realm of Catholic Teaching.  Therefore, I propose we stick to the terms "orthodox" and "heterodox"

if you substitute "heterodox" everywhere you see "liberal" in these posts, you will be less offended.

Of course if ironmonk is correct in the above bullets (or wait, that's no longer politically correct they can't be called "bullets" anymore! :rotfl:) then "heterodox" would fit you and you might be offended.  But if you recognize abortion is an issue that is so much bigger than any economic issue and takes ultimate precedence over any issue as it is the greatest evil of our time, and are not in line with any of the above bullets in ironmonk's post (which I assume you are not) then you can replace "liberal" in the above posts with "heterodox" (which is basically being theologically liberal as opposed to orthodox which is theologically conservative) and you'll be fine.  So long as you're not heterodox. [/quote]
I was going to bring this up. Liberal doesn't mean your political POV, but whether or not you accept Church teachings. "Liberal Catholics" are those who reject the teachings on contraceptives and abortion, who want female priests, etc.

You, Iacobus, I think are a good Catholic and hold fast to the teachings of the Church; you may be a "political liberal" but certainly not liberal when it comes to the Church from what I've seen.

Edited July 5, 2004 by IcePrincessKRS