'Marxist cultural vision': USCCB head José Gomez decries social justice movements

[Dennis Tate]

On 11/5/2021 at 4:55 AM, Matthew 10 42 said:

https://www.blackcatholicmessenger.com/gomez-madrid-speech/

"Curiously—and not unlike his oft-lauded auxiliary bishop Robert Barron—Gomez also appears to argue that the ongoing racial reckoning and its sister movements (which he paints as merely “woke”) are devoid of Christian influence.

The claim is complicated by the fact that at least one of the founders of Black Lives Matter is a Christian, and Jesus-followers of all stripes—including Catholics—have joined the multitude of protests over the past 18 months."

 

"His use of Pope Francis’ words is particularly ironic, given that not even three weeks ago the Holy Father praised George Floyd protesters as “collective Samaritans” in a conference address of his own.I

Incredibly Gomez also quotes Servant of God Dorothy Day (a known Christian anarchist) and Venerable Augustus Tolton (the first openly Black priest in America) in an attempt to underscore his argument."

 

 

Would I be correct to assume that you would probably include me, Dennis Tate, to be in a rather negative category of Christian?

 

Here is my response on the form that requests exemption from the Covid 19 Religious and / or Creed Accomodation Request form for Dennis Tate

Quote

 

"Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have received from God?  You are not your own." (I Corinthians 6:19)

 

To my thinking the usage of stem cells from aborted babies defiles most of these mRna vaccines making them unclean to me.

 

"Lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright." (Hebrews 12:16).

 

My strong immune system is like my birthright and this vaccine gives people some protection to one virus but then weakens our immune response to all other viruses plus many types of cancer.

 

 

Edited November 15, 2021 by Dennis Tate
to ask a relevant question and grammar....

[chrysostom]

39 minutes ago, Machine_Washable said:

I was confused because the passage he quoted seemed to say that anything you did to another was doing that to Jesus not that Jesus was these people. But I don’t know the teachings so thought I was missing something. 

No, you're correct in that understanding.

[Peace]

1 hour ago, Hna.Caridad said:

"Secondly, if you think that the Catholic church has not already taught that black lives matter, you know nothing about what the Church teaches."

Sadly, while the Catholic Church "officially" teaches that black lives matter, white lives matter, all lives matter, blah, blah, blah, unofficially, there's often a very different message.

I don't see an "unofficial message" that is different than the "official message". Many black Catholics see that message, sure. Especially the MLK folks.

I do not see it (as black Catholic myself) but perhaps that's because I don't fall into the mainstream "let us integrate ourselves with white people" view of the world. If I walked into any place and the message was "black lives do not matter" I would not be in that place for very long. I'd just go to a different parish instead where the message is welcoming, and there are plenty of parishes where I am welcome. I'm not gonna sit there and be bothered about how a random group of white people feel about me. You do you. I and my people will get along just fine over here.

1 hour ago, Hna.Caridad said:

I was in a Catholic Church in a black neighborhood that had over 50 images of white "holiness" portrayed via statues, paintings, stained glass windows, bulletin and hymnal covers, etc.  In fact, the only images of holiness portrayed that weren't white were plants (i.e. lilies, cedar trees, etc.), animals (i.e. fish, lions, etc.), and inanimate objects (i.e. boats, shepherd's crooks, etc.).  There wasn't even have an image of Our Lady of Guadalupe.  All the while, pastor after pastor after pastor would get assigned to that parish and wonder why people from the neighborhood weren't worshiping there.

Yeah that happens often. First the USA and Europe are majority white places, and Christianity spread from Europe to much of the world via colonialism, etc. When churches are being built by white people it's only natural that you are going to put some white people on the walls, no?

If me and some other black people get together and build a church, we aren't gonna put some white people on the walls, that's for sure. So that's not really any issue for me. And I'm not going out of my way to put Our Lady of Guadalupe on there either. There are gonna be black and brown folks on the walls, and I'm not gonna be too concerned about putting a few random white people on the wall for the sake of "inclusivity" or what have you. So if you've got some Italian-American, Irish-American, Polish, neighborhoods in the USA, I don't expect to go in there and to see black people on the walls. I don't care is what I am saying in brief.

You do see this situation when neighborhood demographics change or what have you, and you have churches with all white statues in a black neighborhood. I saw that a few times in Africa too (most likely because the churches were built during colonial times I would imagine). About all of this I'm not particularly concerned to be honest. If there are some black Catholics in those neighborhoods and they want the statues changed they can pool some money together and build a church of their own, pay for their statutes, or whatever. It's been done before. I'm not about to beg some white people to put brown statutes up in churches that they built, so that I can write home and say "Look mom! The white people like me and put up a brown statute that looks like me!" I think that's ridiculous and lacks of self-respect, but that's just my take on it. I realize this ain't the majority view.

1 hour ago, Hna.Caridad said:

I can't help but wonder what a person of color would think upon walking into that church.  Would they think that Catholics worship God or would they think that Catholics worship whiteness?

If black lives really matter, why aren't more images of black holiness displayed in our churches?  Why do so few white people even notice the conspicuous absence of such images in many (most?) U.S. churches?  When only images of white holiness matter to a church leaders and members, it's really hard to believe them when they say things like "all lives matter".

Well personally it does not bother me. Look, I like to see black statutes and I encourage them to be put up everywhere. But I look at that as my own responsibility, not the responsibility of someone else. It's not like black people don't know how to build statutes, and its not like we don't have money.

The main parish I attend and that is the closest to where I live is mostly white, but when I feel like hearing some gospel music, or going to a parish with black priests, deacons, where most of the parishoners are black, where the statutes are black, etc. I just visit a different parish where that is the case. Fortunately that's available where I am at, though.

It's interesting though. There are a couple huge black parishes where I live. one of them is actually in a predominately white-neighborhood, that was historically black. Should that parish take down all of the black and brown statutes and start putting up white statutes so that random white non-Catholics from the area will feel more "welcome" if they happen to venture in? I'm guessing the parishioners there would laugh you out of town if you suggested that to them.

If a random white person goes into a black parish, sees black people on the wall, hears gospel music being played, is he going to think "Oh, Catholics worship blackness"? No, that would be a ridiculous for him to conclude right? So why is it that the black person supposedly thinks "Oh Catholics worship whiteness" just because he sees a white church with white images on the wall? Seriously. What is ridiculous for the white person to conclude will be the very same thing that the black person is expected to conclude? Are black people really this incapable of thinking critically? Sometimes when I see these "what will black people think" type of statements I wonder to myself "He must really think that all black people are stupid.

From my standpoint it can be a bit paternalistic, or a bit condescending, when white or other non-black people presume that all of us have some particular desire or need to be accepted by them. It's almost as if they view white people as the cool-kids club, black people are the nerds who want to be part of the club, and the members of the cool-kids club should be benevolent and let the nerds into the club that they desire to be in so much. But yeah I reject this whole notion. The Church is not "white" or a "white institution" in my view, period. I already view myself as just as much as part of the "cool kids club" as anyone else and I don't need any non-black person to validate my position within the Church. There are plenty of parishes where black people are the majority, either here in the USA and even moreso when considering the global church. So if black people in the USA want more of those parishes, they should build them, not begging white people to turn churches that they built "more brown" so that they can feel "accepted" there. To me, that's nonsense.

But that's just my own particular take on it.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Peace

[chrysostom]

1 hour ago, Hna.Caridad said:

Would they think that Catholics worship God or would they think that Catholics worship whiteness?

ok

[Peace]

1 hour ago, Machine_Washable said:

I was confused because the passage he quoted seemed to say that anything you did to another was doing that to Jesus not that Jesus was these people. But I don’t know the teachings so thought I was missing something. 

I'm telling you wokeness is a disease that affects the brain.

[Ash Wednesday]

3 hours ago, Hna.Caridad said:

Would they think that Catholics worship God or would they think that Catholics worship whiteness?

When people visit a Catholic church, they need to know that it is a sacred space where Catholics worship Jesus, where He is truly present. The most important Presence and greatest focus in any church should be the Blessed Sacrament. If people don't come away from a church with at least some kind of understanding or ability to notice what should hold the greatest importance, then the boat has been missed completely about why the Blessed Sacrament matters and what makes a church distinctly Catholic.

[Peace]

35 minutes ago, Ash Wednesday said:

When people visit a Catholic church, they need to know that it is a sacred space where Catholics worship Jesus, where He is truly present. The most important Presence and greatest focus in any church should be the Blessed Sacrament. If people don't come away from a church with at least some kind of understanding or ability to notice what should hold the greatest importance, then the boat has been missed completely about why the Blessed Sacrament matters and what makes a church distinctly Catholic.

I agree, but I think that's something mainly for Catholics, no? At least in the USA your average Protestant who doesn't know anything about Catholics ain't gonna have any conception of the Real Presence. You could put a big sign up in front of the tabernacle that said "Jesus is right here. No I mean literally right here" and they still would have no idea what you are talking about.

I mean I had been to a few churches where some of the tabernacles were very prominent, but I still had not the foggiest idea that there was anything important there until I got the full explanation in RCIA. I barely even gave a second thought to it to be honest. And if I did I probably would have thought some nonsense like "Is that where they keep the money"?

Edited November 15, 2021 by Peace

[Ash Wednesday]

11 minutes ago, Peace said:

I agree, but I think that's something mainly for Catholics, no? At least in the USA your average Protestant who doesn't know anything about Catholics ain't gonna have any conception of the Real Presence. You could put a big sign up in front of the tabernacle that said "Jesus is right here. No I mean literally right here" and they still would have no idea what you are talking about.

I mean I had been to a few churches where some of the tabernacles were very prominent, but I still had not the foggiest idea that there was anything important there until I got the full explanation in RCIA. I barely even gave a second thought to it to be honest. And if I did I probably would have thought some nonsense like "Is that where they keep the money"?

People may not always immediately understand, but at the very least people need to have the implicit understanding that they are in a sacred space. In my experience a lot of anemic parishes aren't lacking in this focus on being a "relatable and diverse parish community" but there is a blandness about them where they have lost the sense of the sacred that barely differentiates them from the local community hall. 

In a nutshell, yes, relatable saints or a positive parish culture is a blessing but I think making that our greatest focus is not really what it's all about.

[Peace]

18 minutes ago, Ash Wednesday said:

People may not always immediately understand, but at the very least people need to have the implicit understanding that they are in a sacred space. In my experience a lot of anemic parishes aren't lacking in this focus on being a "relatable and diverse parish community" but there is a blandness about them where they have lost the sense of the sacred that barely differentiates them from the local community hall. 

In a nutshell, yes, relatable saints or a positive parish culture is a blessing but I think making that our greatest focus is not really what it's all about.

Yeah. I agree with your basic point. That idea of having a space that is "sacred" is important, regardless of the specific cultural expressions that may differentiate parishes.

[Matthew 10 42]

7 hours ago, Peace said:

First of all, you are reading those passages too literally.  Jesus is not literally the homeless person you see on the street. Blasphemy.

What are you talking about? Read about the final judgement. Jesus says when a poor person was thirsty and you gave him water you were giving it to Jesus himself. And when you didn't you were refusing him water. How am I reading it to literally?

Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.

7 hours ago, Peace said:

Come on dude get out of here with this Woke mumbo jumbo. Where do you think Phatmass is, Black Lives Matter Plaza? I'm one of the less traddy types around this forum and even I cannot take this nonsense.

You know plenty well that most non-black people are gonna take offense if somebody comes out and says "God is black" just like if I went to a place with mostly black people and proclaimed "God is white." You think the folks there are gonna be like "Oh OK" after I follow it up with some "Oh well you see, Jesus said that he is a poor person, and I saw a poor white person this morning. Therfore, Jesus is white" nonsense?

I'm siding with Nate from Black Catholic Messenger over you. And the other Black Catholics I've met who think this is far from "woke  mumbo jumbo". I respect your opinion and your right to express it. But I'm listening to Gloria Purvis over you without hesitation. Peace be with you and God bless.

[Peace]

5 minutes ago, Matthew 10 42 said:

What are you talking about? Read about the final judgement. Jesus says when a poor person was thirsty and you gave him water you were giving it to Jesus himself. And when you didn't you were refusing him water. How am I reading it to literally?

Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.

Let's say that I see a homeless black person on my way home from work today, and he asks me for a cup of water.

Are you asserting that our Lord Jesus is literally the same human being as the homeless black person? Yes, or no?

If yes, then you blaspheme.

If no, then you have not expressed any valid ground on which to assert that "God is black", and your whole argument goes out the window.

3 minutes ago, Peace said:

I'm siding with Nate from Black Catholic Messenger over you. And the other Black Catholics I've met who think this is far from "woke  mumbo jumbo". I respect your opinion and your right to express it. But I'm listening to Gloria Purvis over you without hesitation. Peace be with you and God bless.

Side with whomever you please. It ain't no skin off my back.

15 minutes ago, Matthew 10 42 said:

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.

Yeah I think you are reading this verse too literally. Look, if I do something kind for a homeless person, I glorify God by that action. I do it for God in that sense. The verse does not mean that if I gave a glass of water to a homeless person, that I just handed a literal glass of water to Jesus himself. What, you think that Jesus is sitting around drinking 800,000 cups a water a day that were given to homeless people?

[Peace]

And for the record, I'm not against the idea that our Lord Jesus is black. I think its certainly possible, and I don't have any issue with anyone who holds that belief. I have statutes of Jesus in my place that are black.

What I do have an issue with is coming up with silly arguments and rationales for the assertion in the name of wokeness, and going to a website where there are only a small handful of black posters and stating "God is black" knowing full well that nobody there is gonna agree with the statement. What is the point of coming here and stating "God is black" to a bunch of non-black people exactly? Perhaps there is a valid reason for that, but I do not see one.

I also have an issue with the politicization of the Catholic faith, whether that be for the BLM movement or for the various neo-con groups who attempt to do the same.

[Matthew 10 42]

These are Jesus words on the final judgement and who will go to Heaven and who will go to hell. If you want to argue this isn't what he's saying go ahead. 

Matthew 25:31-40

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, "I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.” 

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

[Peace]

6 minutes ago, Matthew 10 42 said:

These are Jesus words on the final judgement and who will go to Heaven and who will go to hell. If you want to argue this isn't what he's saying go ahead.

I just did. You are reading the passage too literally! If you want to blaspheme and state that our Lord Jesus is literally the same human being as a homeless man on the street "go ahead".

Besides this is nonsense! Not even YOU believe what you are saying. When you see a homeless person on the street, do you say "Please take this money and buy a meal, My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."  If the homeless person is literally Jesus that is how you should address him.

I can't believe we are still arguing over this foolishness.

No, actually, I can.

But seriously, Matthew 10 42, are you REALLY Catholic? Or are you just pretending to be Catholic so people will take you seriously?

I have serious difficulty believing that any Catholic, no matter how conservative, liberal, "woke" or whatever, would sit at his computer and straight-up blaspheme on a Catholic website.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Peace

[hakutaku]

46 minutes ago, Peace said:

I have serious difficulty believing that any Catholic, no matter how conservative, liberal, "woke" or whatever, would sit at his computer and straight-up blaspheme on a Catholic website.

Lol

Quote

Lastly, we should especially mention the great parable of the Last Judgement (cf. Mt 25:31-46), in which love becomes the criterion for the definitive decision about a human life's worth or lack thereof. Jesus identifies himself with those in need, with the hungry, the thirsty, the stranger, the naked, the sick and those in prison. “As you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me” (Mt 25:40). Love of God and love of neighbour have become one: in the least of the brethren we find Jesus himself, and in Jesus we find God.

--Benedict XVI

Those blasphemous popes.