Your Opinions On The Occult Wanted.

[ladybug]

A poll above so you can answer anonymously.

Here is an article that I feel is important. This is the same as my view.
[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=4624"]http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=4624[/url]

[ladybug]

Anyone?

[Christina]

Deuteronomy 18:9-14 - Every aspect of the occult is here mentioned specifically. It is all an "abomination" and is forbidden. Specifically forbidden are: one who practices "witchcraft" and a "sorcerer" and "one who conjures spells" and a "spiritist."

[b]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/b]

[b]Divination and magic [/b]

[i]2115 God can reveal the future to his prophets or to other saints. Still, a sound Christian attitude consists in putting oneself confidently into the hands of Providence for whatever concerns the future, and giving up all unhealthy curiosity about it. Improvidence, however, can constitute a lack of responsibility.

2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future.48 Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one's service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another's credulity. [/i]


There is more in the CCC about this, but I think you get the picture.

[Christina]

[quote name='ladybug' date='Jul 14 2004, 09:30 PM'] A poll above so you can answer anonymously.

Here is an article that I feel is important. This is the same as my view.
[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=4624"]http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=4624[/url] [/quote]
Yup, posted the same article in the Harry Potter thread.

[cmotherofpirl]

I'll stick with the Church review of Harry Potter

[homeschoolmom]

Could you please post the Church's review?

[God Conquers]

bad chicken

[p0lar_bear]

Real witchcraft is bad. Reading fantasy literature, not so much.

[MC Just]

Most people get into witchcraft in hopes of having power over other people in things, that's what I've noticed, they want to have magical power to control things. they dont care if it's evil or not. In the old testament these kind of people were stoned.

[Christina]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Jul 15 2004, 06:57 AM'] Could you please post the Church's review? [/quote]
I'd like to see this too.

[Catholic_4_Life]

[quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Jul 15 2004, 09:02 AM'] Real witchcraft is bad. Reading fantasy literature, not so much. [/quote]
You can say that again!

My neice loves HP...but she knows it's not real. She knows there is no such thing as "magic"...and I intend on buying her the next book when it comes out. I have all 5 and continue to read them. They are literary works of Fantasy and as long as the reader knows that, I say enjoy them.

I can tell you that the article was interesting, but honestly I would have never caught the things the author did...I hope I can still read the books without "looking" for these flaws.

[ironmonk]

Black magic is very real.

The fallen angels taught man the black arts.

We see in the bible that the Egyptians could turn their staffs into snakes.... this was real... so real that God gave Moses the power to command his staff to change and eat the other two.

satan doesn't want you to believe in him, or in black magic, because if satan doesn't exist, that means that the bible lied, that means there is no God, because God does not lie.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Christina]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Jul 15 2004, 08:36 AM'] Black magic is very real.

The fallen angels taught man the black arts.

We see in the bible that the Egyptians could turn their staffs into snakes.... this was real... so real that God gave Moses the power to command his staff to change and eat the other two.

satan doesn't want you to believe in him, or in black magic, because if satan doesn't exist, that means that the bible lied, that means there is no God, because God does not lie.


God Bless,
ironmonk [/quote]
Thank you for your post. Very well said.


I keep seeing people say, "it's not real" or "it's make believe." Witchcraft and Magic are very real and very dangerous. You can loose your soul if you practice it. Why would you want to expose your children to it? I just don't understand.

Edited July 15, 2004 by Christina

[ladybug]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Jul 15 2004, 09:36 AM'] Black magic is very real.

The fallen angels taught man the black arts.

We see in the bible that the Egyptians could turn their staffs into snakes.... this was real... so real that God gave Moses the power to command his staff to change and eat the other two.

satan doesn't want you to believe in him, or in black magic, because if satan doesn't exist, that means that the bible lied, that means there is no God, because God does not lie.


God Bless,
ironmonk [/quote]
Exactly. If you teach kids that magic is not real, and that there are no evil spirits and no Satan, that discredits the whole bible to just a bunch of stories.

The book of revelations says that those who practice the magic arts and sorcery go to the Lake of Fire with the devil and his angels.

Now, that is not something I want to take lightly if my children's salvation is at stake.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='ladybug' date='Jul 15 2004, 11:50 AM'] Exactly. If you teach kids that magic is not real, and that there are no evil spirits and no Satan, that discredits the whole bible to just a bunch of stories.

The book of revelations says that those who practice the magic arts and sorcery go to the Lake of Fire with the devil and his angels.

Now, that is not something I want to take lightly if my children's salvation is at stake. [/quote]
Teaching your children magic isn't real, [it isn't],

and teaching your children the devil isn't real [he is] are two different things.

[Catholic_4_Life]

I never said the occult wasn't real. What I said was "reading a book of fantasy doesn't lead me to the occult"...

Part of the problem with America today is that we need to lighten up! Thanks to the sex abuse scandalls we know have to go through FBI background checks to work with the youth. I don't mind that, I have nothing to hide, but its frustrating that due to a small percentage of problems, the masses have to suffer.

Also, I can no longer council a youth "alone"...that doesn't bother me, I would rather have another adult there so that we can both help the youth out. Problem with that is, most of the kids don't want to talk to "multiple" adults, they want to confide in one.

I was on a youth trip once and I saw some kids doing something I thought that they probably shouldn't be doing. I went over to them to tell them to stop, and guess what? A priest was the one doing it! I realized then that I had to lighten up a little...I felt like such an old foogy! So I joined them and we got into a water fight. The kids had such a blast, and so did I.

I know the occult is real. I know that Satan is real. I know that Harry Potter is not. It's a BOOK of fictional characters doing things that can not be done...and even if some of the spells ARE real, I am not worried. I have strong roots in my family, and we know the truth...that God will prevail.

God bless,

Steven

[Catholic_4_Life]

BTW...I voted that yes, witchcraft is a sin. I know it is...I know poeple in my town who practice it, and I pray for them constantly.

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='Christina' date='Jul 15 2004, 11:38 AM'] Thank you for your post. Very well said.


I keep seeing people say, "it's not real" or "it's make believe." Witchcraft and Magic are very real and very dangerous. You can loose your soul if you practice it. Why would you want to expose your children to it? I just don't understand. [/quote]
I never said witchcraft is make believe or not real, just the witchcraft portrayed in the HP books. I think that goes for pretty much everyone else on the phorum too (though I could be wrong).

I can read a book about, say... the underground railroad, know that the events in the book are not real, yet still acknowledge that the underground railroad was real. I can watch Air Force One, know that Harrison Ford is not the president, but still know there is a president.

If a child read the Hardy Boys, they see teenage boys investigating murders and fighting crime. You can let children read and enjoy them. There are people who really do commit murder and people really do catch them. But if a real child tried to do what the Hardy Boys do, they would quickly end up dead. Let the kid read the books, but let them know that if they see something like this, they should go to an adult for help, not try to catch the guy on their own.

In Pirates of the Caribbean, pirates (who raid, pillage, plunder and otherwise pilfer their weasley black guts out) are shown as good. Of course doing those things are bad, but the movie is makebelieve. You can have a child watch that movie, even like Jack Sparrow (honestly, who doesn't?) and still be a good, moral, Catholic child.

Explain to me how the wizardry shown in HP is evil while the wizardry in LOTR, or Cinderella for that matter, is not?

[ladybug]

[quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Jul 15 2004, 10:26 AM'] I never said witchcraft is make believe or not real, just the witchcraft portrayed in the HP books. I think that goes for pretty much everyone else on the phorum too (though I could be wrong).

I can read a book about, say... the underground railroad, know that the events in the book are not real, yet still acknowledge that the underground railroad was real. I can watch Air Force One, know that Harrison Ford is not the president, but still know there is a president.

If a child read the Hardy Boys, they see teenage boys investigating murders and fighting crime. You can let children read and enjoy them. There are people who really do commit murder and people really do catch them. But if a real child tried to do what the Hardy Boys do, they would quickly end up dead. Let the kid read the books, but let them know that if they see something like this, they should go to an adult for help, not try to catch the guy on their own.

In Pirates of the Caribbean, pirates (who raid, pillage, plunder and otherwise pilfer their weasley black guts out) are shown as good. Of course doing those things are bad, but the movie is makebelieve. You can have a child watch that movie, even like Jack Sparrow (honestly, who doesn't?) and still be a good, moral, Catholic child.
[/quote]
"Explain to me how the wizardry shown in HP is evil while the wizardry in LOTR, or Cinderella for that matter, is not?"

In Cinderella, it is a fairy godmother doing it and it's more of a light reference to the supernatural, and does not say if it's witchcraft or not. I could be a miracle. A faerie is an imaginary character and we know there are no real faeries.

I have not done much research into the Lord of the Rings, but from what I heard it's not witchcraft they are doing, but something spontaneous that comes from God.

In Harry Potter it's very intense and clear that it's witchcraft, and all about a school of witchcraft and wizardry, and glorifies indoctrination into witchcraft and going through levels in a secret society, and it's more of occult in origin and has intense occult symbolism in it....like the lightening bolt is a common known occult symbol for the antichrist.

The very nature of the symbol, the lightning bolt, while known as a Satanic S, actually holds the same occult meaning as the Tau cross," which was the emblem of 'generative power, or eternal transmigrating life...The Tau is the Thoth, the Teut, the Teutates of the Druids....the tau cross is actually the symbol of the pagan slain and risen god, Tammuz (Ezekiel 8:13-14). It's also the symbol of Zeus and the symbol of power over others.

And it's curious that it's on Harry Potters forehead. Why the forehead?

There are shape shifters in the story, divination involving dead spirits, familiar spirits, wiccan chants, herbology and potions, possession, palmistry, ancient runes, numerology, astrology, charms, fire omens, spell books, scrying, etc.... all of these things are in the book and are hardly an innocent Cinderella fairy story.

People who are promoting this book are not familiar with the occult...although they are well meaning good people. The head exorcist of our church IS familiar with the occult as he came out of a past in the occult, and he says Satan's fingerprints are all over it. I believe the head exorcist.

But if a person doesn't know what they don't know then you can't really judge them. But, once a person knows they cannot continue.

Lev 20
6 And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.
7 Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the LORD your God.

[p0lar_bear]

[quote]The very nature of the symbol, the lightning bolt, while known as a Satanic S, actually holds the same occult meaning as the Tau cross," which was the emblem of 'generative power, or eternal transmigrating life...The Tau is the Thoth, the Teut, the Teutates of the Druids....the tau cross is actually the symbol of the pagan slain and risen god, Tammuz (Ezekiel 8:13-14). It's also the symbol of Zeus and the symbol of power over others.
[/quote]

Does that mean the movie Joe Vs the Volcano is evil too...a lightning symbol shows up repeatedly in the movie...

Are Franciscan's evil because they use the tau? Is rebirthflame (on the forum) evil because he/she uses the triquerta as an avatar (the triquerta was originally a sign for a celtic goddess)?

Maybe JK Rowling chose a lightning bolt because she knows someone with a lightning bolt scar. (My sister has one from falling off the stairs).

[quote]I have not done much research into the Lord of the Rings, but from what I heard it's not witchcraft they are doing, but something spontaneous that comes from God. [/quote]

You might want to read the books...Gandalf is a [i]wizard[/i] as is Sauraman. Gandalf is good, Sauraman is not. (hmmm...kind of like Dumbledore and Voldemort). They need their staffs to do their magic (HP needs a wand). They use incantations too.

In Cinderella, the fairy godmother has a wand, says an incantation, and magical things happen. A fairy is a magical creature; one cannot become a fairy...(in HP, you can't choose to become a wizard).