Your Opinions On The Occult Wanted.

[mmmerf]

This is a pretty tough call for me. I said witchcraft is a sin, but the question is not really complete - knowingly resorting to witchcraft is a sin. It's real, and it's really wrong.

That being said, I have a friend who is a Pagan, (i think) a Wiccan. This is someone who seeks what is good and honest, but happens to be part of a non-christian religion. While I know that the Gospel is true, she does not have that knowledge. (And me telling her doesn't change that, darn the difference between 'knowledge' and 'information'.) She's not a bad person, and I can't honestly say she is different than a friend who was Hindu or Bhuddist. And it isn't a sin to be Bhuddist if Bhuddism is all you've ever accepted as true.

Do I pray for her? Yes. Do I hope she'll come around? Of course. Is she sinning? I don't think so. If I so much as picked up a deck of Tarot cards, I know I'd be sinning, much more if I attended a reading or tried to use them myself. But I am culpable because of my knowledge, and she is innocent because of her ignorance.

Is that fair?

The exception to this argument is (of course) S*tanism, but I would call S*tanists ones who [b]knowingly[/b] set themselves up in opposition to Christ.

...and losers. I'd also call them losers.

Blessed be Jesus Christ, true God and true man. Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be forever. Amen.

Cheers,

Dave

[ladybug]

Here is a video by a lay apologetic and EWTN personality about the dangers of Harry Potter.
[url="http://www.marianland.com/jeremiah_harrypottemain.html"]http://www.marianland.com/jeremiah_harrypottemain.html[/url]

It is supposed to address the difference between books like Harry Potter and other fairytales and fantasy.

I think it's worth checking into if there is any bit of discomfort or doubt.

The church has NOT made an official ruling about it yet, it was just opinion, and the Vatican representative made it clear that it's only his opinion and he is not speaking on behalf of the vatican.

With so many concerned catholic parents, we should have some sort of voice in our church and not be laughed at and dismissed as too conservative and uptight, or whatever.

I personally am concerned because I had gotten sucked into the occult and that's a dark part of my past and I KNOW how easy it is for subtle things to influence your mind without you realizing it.

[ladybug]

[quote name='mmmerf' date='Jul 15 2004, 11:54 AM'] This is a pretty tough call for me. I said witchcraft is a sin, but the question is not really complete - knowingly resorting to witchcraft is a sin. It's real, and it's really wrong.

That being said, I have a friend who is a Pagan, (i think) a Wiccan. This is someone who seeks what is good and honest, but happens to be part of a non-christian religion. While I know that the Gospel is true, she does not have that knowledge. (And me telling her doesn't change that, darn the difference between 'knowledge' and 'information'.) She's not a bad person, and I can't honestly say she is different than a friend who was Hindu or Bhuddist. And it isn't a sin to be Bhuddist if Bhuddism is all you've ever accepted as true.

Do I pray for her? Yes. Do I hope she'll come around? Of course. Is she sinning? I don't think so. If I so much as picked up a deck of Tarot cards, I know I'd be sinning, much more if I attended a reading or tried to use them myself. But I am culpable because of my knowledge, and she is innocent because of her ignorance.

Is that fair?

The exception to this argument is (of course) S*tanism, but I would call S*tanists ones who [b]knowingly[/b] set themselves up in opposition to Christ.

...and losers. I'd also call them losers.

Blessed be Jesus Christ, true God and true man. Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be forever. Amen.

Cheers,

Dave [/quote]
I have wiccan friends too, and family members...and they just don't understand. I show them the scriptures and they just don't believe in the bible. They do not believe there is such a thing as evil spirits or the devil, and that the only spirits they consult are good and of God.

So, I don't know what to do.

I know as soon as they come to believe in the bible then they could no longer continue.

And you can't MAKE anyone believe the bible. You can only treat them with love and set a good example.

[ladybug]

[quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Jul 15 2004, 11:50 AM'] You might want to read the books...Gandalf is a [i]wizard[/i] as is Sauraman. Gandalf is good, Sauraman is not. (hmmm...kind of like Dumbledore and Voldemort). They need their staffs to do their magic (HP needs a wand). They use incantations too.

In Cinderella, the fairy godmother has a wand, says an incantation, and magical things happen. A fairy is a magical creature; one cannot become a fairy...(in HP, you can't choose to become a wizard). [/quote]
Maybe that is WHY I don't read those books. I have no interest in them at all.

Staffs in themselves are not evil. Moses had a staff with a snake on it, and whoever would look upon it would live. It was a miraculous staff.

I think if a lightening bolt is connected to christianity in an obvious sense...and used in a christian setting, then it is okay because in the bible, the lightening bolt stands for Satan in one instance, and in another it stands for the voice of Jehovah.

There are certain symbols our church has christianized in order to help pagans understand our concepts....like the phoenix rising from the ashes. But we don't promote the pagan part of it.

So, you have to look at the book or actions behind the person using the symbols and see whether it is promoting christianity or witchcraft and paganism.

Also in the bible, Satan is called a morning star, and Jesus is called a morning star.

We have the epiphany star which is 5 pointed, and witches have the pentagram.

Satan is the snake in the garden of eden, and Jesus is the snake on the cross in Chrstian symbolism as he became sin so we could be saved.

So, there is a lot of similarities between the symbols satan uses and symbols of christ.

We have to know how to discern the context in which the symbols are used. It shouldn't be cloudy to where we are not sure whether it's of christ or not. It should be clear.

To me, there is enough evidence to where I know I have to handle it with caution, and not just do it because everyone else is doing it. It's too much of a misty foggy area.

I'd rather let my kids watch Veggie Tales.

[p0lar_bear]

I grew up on fantasy literature that involved witches, wizards, magic and dragons and the like...I still read them.

I didn't grow up to be involved in the occult, I grew up to be a Catholic apologist.

I think you are simplifying things too much and vilifying something that isn't necessarily bad. (As well as vilifying all those who do not see HP has inherently bad...which, btw, would include Archbishop Chaput).

[Aloysius]

FYI: "Jehovah" is a mistranslation of the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) which was mixed with the vowels from the word Adonai so that people would remember to say Adonai and not speak the Hashem ("The Name"). They were very careful not to speak His Name in vain. Anyway, "Jehovah" is a 400 year old mistranslation.

[ladybug]

[quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Jul 15 2004, 12:27 PM'] I grew up on fantasy literature that involved witches, wizards, magic and dragons and the like...I still read them.

I didn't grow up to be involved in the occult, I grew up to be a Catholic apologist.

I think you are simplifying things too much and vilifying something that isn't necessarily bad. (As well as vilifying all those who do not see HP has inherently bad...which, btw, would include Archbishop Chaput). [/quote]
I have a question for you. At one point does a person draw the line and realize that the envelope is being pushed too far in fantasy stories?

I listen to rock n roll, but at what point does a rock n roll song go too far? Should I let my children listen to ALL rock n roll?

Is there a point to where television goes to far with sex topics. We all grew up with seeing people laying in bed together and kissing and making love. At what point do those shows go to far?

We need to have boundaries that we do not cross. Excess is never a good thing.

The difference between Harry Potter and Puff the Magic Dragon is a getting drunk versus one glass of wine.

And some people who have had a history of addiction to the occult should not read those books like an alchoholic should not have that first drink....even though wine is not bad in an of itself.

[p0lar_bear]

If it is a problem for a particular person, then perhaps [i]that person[/i] should not read it. It is wrong, however, to then say that it is evil. To take your own analogy, not everyone is an alcoholic, so while alcohol may cause trouble for some, it is not evil.

From Archbishop Chaput

[quote]So what's the verdict on Harry Potter? That's a matter for parents, not bishops, to decide. I think Harry Potter can be happily enjoyed as a children's fantasy movie. Nothing in the film attacks the Christian faith, and good does win out over evil. At the same time, unfortunately, characters in the Potter books do sometimes accomplish good things by doing bad things, like lying.

In other words, J.K. Rowling is a very different author from C.S. Lewis or J.R.R. Tolkien. If you're looking for Christian allegory, Harry Potter isn't it. [i]Magic and sorcery can be harmless if we understand them simply as story-telling superstition.[/i] If we start believing in them, if we develop an abnormal interest in them, we quickly get into trouble. The Church rejects witchcraft for a very good reason. The devil is not a myth.

Parents who foster an active Christian home for their children probably have little to worry about from a film like Harry Potter. Parents who don't have a lot more to worry about than just this film. The Church teaches that parents are the primary educators of their children for a good reason. They know - or should know - their children better than anyone else. With Harry Potter, as with so much else, parents are the first and best judge (emphasis added). [/quote]

full text available at www.archden.org/archbishop/docs/12_05_01_potter.htm

[ladybug]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 15 2004, 12:39 PM'] FYI: "Jehovah" is a mistranslation of the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) which was mixed with the vowels from the word Adonai so that people would remember to say Adonai and not speak the Hashem ("The Name"). They were very careful not to speak His Name in vain. Anyway, "Jehovah" is a 400 year old mistranslation. [/quote]
You know what I mean though. Whatever.

[ladybug]

[quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Jul 15 2004, 01:03 PM'] If it is a problem for a particular person, then perhaps [i]that person[/i] should not read it. It is wrong, however, to then say that it is evil. To take your own analogy, not everyone is an alcoholic, so while alcohol may cause trouble for some, it is not evil.

From Archbishop Chaput



full text available at www.archden.org/archbishop/docs/12_05_01_potter.htm [/quote]
So then this book should never be part of required reading in a school then if a parent has a conscientious objection. It should be removed from the list then and left up to the parent, not the educators. So the catholic board of education is doing the right thing in considering removing it.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='ladybug' date='Jul 15 2004, 02:50 PM'] I have a question for you. At one point does a person draw the line and realize that the envelope is being pushed too far in fantasy stories?

I listen to rock n roll, but at what point does a rock n roll song go too far? Should I let my children listen to ALL rock n roll?

Is there a point to where television goes to far with sex topics. We all grew up with seeing people laying in bed together and kissing and making love. At what point do those shows go to far?

We need to have boundaries that we do not cross. Excess is never a good thing.

The difference between Harry Potter and Puff the Magic Dragon is a getting drunk versus one glass of wine.

And some people who have had a history of addiction to the occult should not read those books like an alchoholic should not have that first drink....even though wine is not bad in an of itself. [/quote]
A book or movie crosses the line anytime the bad guys are portrayed as good, or are portrayed as winning.

If you are an alcoholic you stay away from wine.
But you don't villify everybody else who drinks.

If you are drawn to the occult, you avoid the topic.
But you would have to avoid a lot of biographies of the Saints as well.
St Teresa encountered the devil one night in her room.
She said "O its just you", rolled over and went back to sleep.
The devil has already lost the battle, these are minor skirmiches.

There is nothing wrong with boundaries, but you pick your battles with care. You don't cross off all fantasy literature because it might have a witch in it, or some reference to the supernatural.


The Catholic movie and book reviewers liked Harry Potter. Bishop Chaput of Denver said they were fine. The are far worse books than HP out there.
My daughter who loves HP, is considering a religious vocation.

[XIX]

Hmmmmm...

I think we have all seen that it is very debatable as to weather Harry Potter should or should not be read.

But the bottom line is that it can not actually help your soul by reading it. It's not going to improve your relationship with God. The best you can hope for is a wash.

And frankly, I don't think it is worth playing games when sould are on the line. We truly have no idea how much power we hae to influence others.

[p0lar_bear]

If they choose not to include it in the [i]required[/i] reading, then that may be a good choice. I don't think there is any problem, however, with them being recommended or acceptable reading.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='ladybug' date='Jul 15 2004, 03:10 PM'] So then this book should never be part of required reading in a school then if a parent has a conscientious objection. It should be removed from the list then and left up to the parent, not the educators. So the catholic board of education is doing the right thing in considering removing it. [/quote]
If your children are learning about fantasy literature its fine.
If someone thinks it should be part of classics , that would be wrong.

[mmmerf]

[quote name='XIX' date='Jul 15 2004, 01:16 PM']
But the bottom line is that it can not actually help your soul by reading it. It's not going to improve your relationship with God. The best you can hope for is a wash.
[/quote]
By this logic I should avoid club sandwiches also. Which is madness. Complete madness.

-_- I'm jus' sayin', is all.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='ladybug' date='Jul 15 2004, 01:06 PM'] You know what I mean though. Whatever. [/quote]
yeah I know. it was just FYI (For Your Information)

I enjoy making myself sound smart. so sue me. :nanny:

Pax

[ladybug]

[quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Jul 15 2004, 01:03 PM'] If it is a problem for a particular person, then perhaps [i]that person[/i] should not read it. It is wrong, however, to then say that it is evil. To take your own analogy, not everyone is an alcoholic, so while alcohol may cause trouble for some, it is not evil.

[/quote]
So, if it's wrong for some and a problem for some, then others should not openly flaunt it around us and call us uptight or mean names for standing up for our children. We should not be told we are 'uncool' or 'out of touch'.

I should be able to take my child to a night club with people getting drunk then, since we are only watching and not actually doing it ourselves.

We can go to a friends masterbation orgy as long as they conceal their bodies as they are doing it, we are only observers and are not actually participating and I can just explain to my children that the church says it's a sin and not to actually do it themselves.

Second hand smoke won't harm my child. Let's go to a smoking party with my kids.

We all played with Ouija boards as children. As long as don't touch the ouija board ourselves and I am there to explain that they are trying to contact the dead in a good way, and we are only observers at a friends house who are doing the ouija board then it will be just fun adventurous entertainment. As long as we are only watching, and not doing.

(coming from someone who got hooked on ouija from a christian friends birthday party where I was only an observer..at first)

[XIX]

[quote name='mmmerf' date='Jul 15 2004, 01:20 PM'] By this logic I should avoid club sandwiches also. Which is madness. Complete madness.

-_- I'm jus' sayin', is all. [/quote]
Club sandwiches can't drive a wedge between you and God...not realistically, anyway. In fact, I would imagine that some of them are healthy.

I mean, there is a danger (LOL, dangers are everywhere, part of our human condition) to [i]relying[/i] on the taste of food for happiness or fulfillment. But you still have to eat to stay alive. Avoiding all food altogether wouldn't be very pro-life.

I'm liable to change my opinion on this, BTW.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='XIX' date='Jul 15 2004, 03:16 PM'] Hmmmmm...

I think we have all seen that it is very debatable as to weather Harry Potter should or should not be read.

But the bottom line is that it can not actually help your soul by reading it. It's not going to improve your relationship with God. The best you can hope for is a wash.

And frankly, I don't think it is worth playing games when sould are on the line. We truly have no idea how much power we hae to influence others. [/quote]
Actually I disagree with you about helping your soul.

HP [so far] brings the battle between good and evil into sharp focus. Most people think the battle for souls is some big distant battle they are not part of. HP makes it personal. WE are in the trenches, and are part of the battle. Every day WE must struggle to be good, and WE do influence people by our actions. Most of the time we don't have all the clues, we muddle thru. And the ending can be messy, and bad things do happen to good people.

HP shows how evil wins if good people do nothing.

This is one of the most important lessons anybody can learn.

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='ladybug' date='Jul 15 2004, 03:25 PM'] So, if it's wrong for some and a problem for some, then others should not openly flaunt it around us and call us uptight or mean names for standing up for our children. We should not be told we are 'uncool' or 'out of touch'.

I should be able to take my child to a night club with people getting drunk then, since we are only watching and not actually doing it ourselves.

We can go to a friends masterbation orgy as long as they conceal their bodies as they are doing it, we are only observers and are not actually participating and I can just explain to my children that the church says it's a sin and not to actually do it themselves.

Second hand smoke won't harm my child. Let's go to a smoking party with my kids.

We all played with Ouija boards as children.  As long as don't touch the ouija board ourselves and I am there to explain that they are trying to contact the dead in a good way, and we are only observers at a friends house who are doing the ouija board then it will be just fun adventurous entertainment. As long as we are only watching, and not doing.

(coming from someone who got hooked on ouija from a christian friends birthday party where I was only an observer..at first) [/quote]
So Harry Potter should be banned because a few people might have a problem with it? That's just like banning alcohol because some people are alcoholics. Or banning Huck Finn because some people are so offended by the use of the n-word in the book that they can't see past it (note: I would never use the n-word, but I recognize its use as a historical reality put into a good story). Should we ban Little House on the Prairie because native Americans might be offended by a book that shows western expansion as a good thing rather than an incroachment on their land? Or Isben's A Doll's House because it challenges traditional gender roles in the home? How about King Arthur stories because they portray insest? Or The Count of Monte Cristo because the 'hero' decieves everyone, sets out to destroy people and has a concubine?

Putting reading Harry Potter on level with masturbation is simply ridiculous and makes your position less credible.

Fantasy novels (even those including references to magic) are not inherently evil. The Church has never declared them as such and never will.


Edit: Oh, and even though my parents let us read all sorts of fantasy literature, I never played with Ouija boards because I knew that while fantasy magic was ok, Ouija boards and real witchcraft was bad.

Edited July 15, 2004 by p0lar_bear