Sicker And Sicker....

[ironmonk]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Jul 16 2004, 11:30 AM'] PROVERBS


23:13-14

13 Withhold not chastisement from a boy; if you beat him with the rod, he will not die.
14Beat him with the rod, and you will save him from the nether world. [/quote]
Yes... girls are different than boys.

Pain is good for boys.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[BeenaBobba]

I can't honestly say that I'm shocked about the whole Britney Spears thing. Man, that girl seems to be going on a downward spiral, and it's really sad.

God bless,

Jen

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

[quote name='BeenaBobba' date='Jul 16 2004, 10:04 AM'] I can't honestly say that I'm shocked about the whole Britney Spears thing. Man, that girl seems to be going on a downward spiral, and it's really sad.

God bless,

Jen [/quote]
Yeah, it seems like since all the stuff came out about her and Justin Timberlake and their break-up, she's decided to just go all out on lowering her moral standards and showing it.

[BeenaBobba]

As for spanking a child, I don't have a problem with it. The goal, of course, is to hurt the child's pride and make it clear that he or she has done wrong. If I ever spank my future kids, I'll be sure not to do it when angry. I won't hit hard, either. There's a line between punishment and abuse, and it mustn't be crossed. Hitting hard enough to leave a mark, drawing blood, or knocking the wind out of a child is surely child abuse -- and I find that reprehensible. IMO, punching and kicking a child is always wrong. Whipping a kid with a belt or a stick is going too far, I think, in that this would almost always leave welts.

Do any of you think it's okay to hit your wives? I hope not.

God bless,

Jen

[BeenaBobba]

[quote name='1337 k4th0l1x0r' date='Jul 16 2004, 12:12 PM'] Yeah, it seems like since all the stuff came out about her and Justin Timberlake and their break-up, she's decided to just go all out on lowering her moral standards and showing it. [/quote]
I've noticed that as well, but I don't wanna gossip about Ms. Spears. I just feel bad for her. I feel bad for anyone who thinks they have to dress like a skank or French kiss a middle aged women to sell albums. I wish she knew she was worth so much more than that.

God bless,

Jen

[BeenaBobba]

[quote name='conservativecatholic' date='Jul 15 2004, 11:55 PM'] Alexander Tyler, (in his 1770 book, 'Cycle of Democracy' )

"...The average of the world's great civilizations before they decline has been 200 years. These nations have progressed in this sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to great courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to
complacency; from complacency to apathy; from apathy to dependency; from dependency back again to bondage."

What's next for the USA?? [/quote]
That's a great quote! I think we're somewhere in the latter stages, unfortunately. What's next? Legalized (child) prostitution, infanticide, murder of the infirm, etc.

God bless,

Jen

[Azriel]

[quote name='BeenaBobba' date='Jul 16 2004, 10:16 AM'] As for spanking a child, I don't have a problem with it. The goal, of course, is to hurt the child's pride and make it clear that he or she has done wrong. If I ever spank my future kids, I'll be sure not to do it when angry. I won't hit hard, either. There's a line between punishment and abuse, and it mustn't be crossed. Hitting hard enough to leave a mark, drawing blood, or knocking the wind out of a child is surely child abuse -- and I find that reprehensible. IMO, punching and kicking a child is always wrong. Whipping a kid with a belt or a stick is going too far, I think, in that this would almost always leave welts.

Do any of you think it's okay to hit your wives? I hope not.

God bless,

Jen [/quote]
Excellent post.

On a side note ... my Grandfather (may he rest in peace) used to make his kids go out and cut their own switch. One time my uncle came back in the house with a board with nails in it.

My Grandpa laughed so hard my uncle never did get whipped.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='BeenaBobba' date='Jul 16 2004, 12:16 PM'] As for spanking a child, I don't have a problem with it.  The goal, of course, is to hurt the child's pride and make it clear that he or she has done wrong.  If I ever spank my future kids, I'll be sure not to do it when angry.  I won't hit hard, either.  There's a line between punishment and abuse, and it mustn't be crossed.  Hitting hard enough to leave a mark, drawing blood, or knocking the wind out of a child is surely child abuse -- and I find that reprehensible.  IMO, punching and kicking a child is always wrong.  Whipping a kid with a belt or a stick is going too far, I think, in that this would almost always leave welts.

Do any of you think it's okay to hit your wives?  I hope not. 

God bless,

Jen [/quote]
Using a belt does not go to far. It's the same precept as a paddle... The Catholic Church schools have used paddles for years... The Catholic Church sees paddles and belts as acceptable.

When I was a kid I needed a belt or paddle. Not all kids need it.

A little pain on the butt shows a kid that there are real consequences to his actions. Growing up many kids do good so not to get the punishment and then, when older they know right from wrong and they do good to do good. A child's choices will program their actions in the future. Discipline them with what is needed as a child and they will grow up to be good adults.

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HITTING A WIFE! DO NOT MAKE IT OUT TO BE SOMETHING IT'S NOT! ARE YOU WISER THAN THE CHURCH?!

Edited July 16, 2004 by ironmonk

[Lil Red]

i think there's a difference between swatting your child and spanking your child. my parents raised 9 kids (but had 10). we were all spanked. i once saw my dad spank my brother when he was 14 or 15. do you think that's right?! i don't. with the exception of one of my brothers, all of us have tempers and have trouble controlling our tempers, all of us hit each other (or others) as a form of affection (which is twisted). do you know why? i think it's because we were taught that when something upset you, you hit. AND MY DAD NEVER SPANKED WHEN HE WAS ANGRY. When you wanted to show affection, you punched or slapped. i was afraid of my father for many years; and not until i moved out of my parents' home did i feel comfortable standing up to him.

will i swat my kids (when i have them)? probably. will i spank them? never.

[BeenaBobba]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Jul 16 2004, 12:45 PM'] Using a belt does not go to far. It's the same precept as a paddle... The Catholic Church schools have used paddles for years... The Catholic Church sees paddles and belts as acceptable.
[/quote]
I'm not aware of any infallible Church document saying that the belt or paddle is an acceptable weapon of corporal punishment. Do you know of any?

Do a search on corporal punishment at the EWTN website. The forum experts have said that Catholic school teachers have gone too far in the past -- and that there were indeed excesses and abuses.

[quote]THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HITTING A WIFE! DO NOT MAKE IT OUT TO BE SOMETHING IT'S NOT! ARE YOU WISER THAN THE CHURCH?![/quote]

Relax. It was just an honest question. I don't think I'm wiser than the Church, no, but I don't recall the Church ever having said that beating a kid with a belt is okay.

God bless,

Jen

P.S. I actually don't have much of a problem with corporal punishment by a paddle. Hitting a child with a paddle is more or less the same as spanking them with a hand. Of course, this can be taken too far. Belts, on the other hand, almost always leave welts. How could anyone say that leaving stripes on a child's back wouldn't be child abuse?

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='Jul 16 2004, 12:57 PM'] i think there's a difference between swatting your child and spanking your child.  my parents raised 9 kids (but had 10).  we were all spanked.  i once saw my dad spank my brother when he was 14 or 15.  do you think that's right?!  i don't.  with the exception of one of my brothers, all of us have tempers and have trouble controlling our tempers, all of us hit each other (or others) as a form of affection (which is twisted).  do you know why?  i think it's because we were taught that when something upset you, you hit.  AND MY DAD NEVER SPANKED WHEN HE WAS ANGRY.  When you wanted to show affection, you punched or slapped.  i was afraid of my father for many years; and not until i moved out of my parents' home did i feel comfortable standing up to him.

will i swat my kids (when i have them)?  probably.  will i spank them?  never. [/quote]
That's a whole seperate issue.

It has nothing to do with spanking.

If you kids end up in boot camp, remember what you said about not ever spanking them.


I think the Church and God are a little wiser than those who will spare the rod.


I use to teach kids in a level two program for the FL Dept. Of Law Enforcement. None of them were ever spanked....

[color=red][Edited by IcePrincess: unnecessary comment. reported for "personal attack."][/color]

Edited July 17, 2004 by IcePrincessKRS

[ironmonk]

[quote name='BeenaBobba' date='Jul 16 2004, 01:00 PM'] I'm not aware of any infallible Church document saying that the belt or paddle is an acceptable weapon of corporal punishment.  Do you know of any?

Do a search on corporal punishment at the EWTN website.  The forum experts have said that Catholic school teachers have gone too far in the past -- and that there were indeed excesses and abuses.



Relax.  It was just an honest question.  I don't think I'm wiser than the Church, no, but I don't recall the Church ever having said that beating a kid with a belt is okay.

God bless,

Jen

P.S.  I actually don't have much of a problem with corporal punishment by a paddle.  Hitting a child with a paddle is more or less the same as spanking them with a hand.  Of course, this can be taken too far.  Belts, on the other hand, almost always leave welts.  How could anyone say that leaving stripes on a child's back wouldn't be child abuse? [/quote]
WHERE DID I WRITE BEAT OR LEAVE WELTS?

THE PADDLE IS NOT ANYTHING LIKE A HAND... I WAS SPANKED BY HANDS, PADDLES (AT Catholic school), AND THE BELT.

NOTHING WAS WRONG WITH ANY OF THOSE.

ANYONE WHO THINKS IT WAS WRONG, IS CLUELESS ON HOW TO DISCIPLINE A KID, AND HAS FAILED TO PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT I HAVE BEEN POSTING IN THE POSTS THAT I HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT THE TOPIC.

NOT ALL KIDS NEED TO BE SPANKED... SOME DO. SOME NEED THE PADDLE, SOME NEED THE BELT.

ANYONE THAT SAYS THAT IS WRONG HASN'T STUDIED THE TOPIC, OR HAS NOT SEEN THE RESULT OF NO SPANKINGS.

Edited July 16, 2004 by ironmonk

[ironmonk]

[quote name='BeenaBobba' date='Jul 16 2004, 01:00 PM'] I'm not aware of any infallible Church document saying that the belt or paddle is an acceptable weapon of corporal punishment.  Do you know of any?

[/quote]

[b]Proverbs 13:24 [/b]
He who spares his rod hates his son, but he who loves him takes care to chastise him.

[b]Proverbs 23:13[/b]
Withhold not chastisement from a boy; if you beat him with the rod, he will not die.
[b]14 [/b]Beat him with the rod, and you will save him from the nether world.


[quote]Do a search on corporal punishment at the EWTN website.  The forum experts have said that Catholic school teachers have gone too far in the past -- and that there were indeed excesses and abuses.[/quote]

"There were indeed excesses and abuses" DOES NOT mean do not spank.



NO ONE IS SAYING ABUSE THE KID. SPANKING IS NOT ABUSE.

Edited July 16, 2004 by ironmonk

[Lil Red]

i have seen the result of no spankings. all of my nieces & nephews (13 of them) are not spanked and they are all well behaved kids. and 6 out of the 7 are either in junior high or high school.

and thanks, ironmonk for the personal attack. that made me feel really good.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='Jul 16 2004, 01:13 PM'] i have seen the result of no spankings. all of my nieces & nephews (13 of them) are not spanked and they are all well behaved kids. and 6 out of the 7 are either in junior high or high school.

and thanks, ironmonk for the personal attack. that made me feel really good. [/quote]
THERE WAS NO PERSONAL ATTACK.


13 people... that's real evidence of no spankings?


How about a few thousand people... then you'll be talking evidence.

Why don't you come to florida and visit our bootcamps for teens.... see how many of them where never spanked as a child.

[BeenaBobba]

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Calm down, buddy.

"WHERE DID I WRITE BEAT OR LEAVE WELTS?"

You didn't. But I never said that you said that. I simply said that hitting a kid with a belt would almost always leave a physical mark on a child -- and I think that's child abuse. Because of the leather material that belts are usually made out of, there's a whipping effect. One would have to literally sway the belt back and forth lightly to not leave a mark or a welt, yet it seems to me that that's not the case.

"THE PADDLE IS NOT ANYTHING LIKE A HAND... I WAS SPANKED BY HANDS, PADDLES (AT Catholic school), AND THE BELT."

The paddle is merely a flat surface, like the hand, so if it's not swung hard, it'd have the same effect as the hand. If anything, it probably hurts less.

"NOTHING WAS WRONG WITH ANY OF THOSE."

Like I've said, I don't have a problem with parents spanking their child with a hand or with a paddle, so long as no marks are left, no blood is drawn, and the wind isn't knocked out of the child. I have a problem with the belt because I don't see how it wouldn't leave a mark.

"ANYONE THAT SAYS THAT IS WRONG HASN'T STUDIED THE TOPIC, OR HAS NOT SEEN THE RESULT OF NO SPANKINGS."

Actually, I've seen the results of excessive spanking firsthand. When I was five, my mom slapped me so hard I lost my breath and fell onto the floor. The next day, the imprint of her hand could be seen as a big, red welt on my back. This was pretty traumatic for me as a five-year-old kid, and my mom feels horrible about it to this day. (I've long since forgiven her.)

A Catholic women I used to know was beaten as a child. Of course, her dad probably thought he was disciplining her, but she grew up pretty darn scared, believe me, and it took her a long time to recover.

All that being said, there is a line that should never be crossed. Spanking should only be done in moderation, and not to the point where it causes physical harm. And like you've said, it's more useful with certain kids.

God bless,

Jen

P.S. I love you, brother. No hard feelings.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Jul 16 2004, 10:03 AM'] If you kids end up in boot camp, remember what you said about not ever spanking them.

If you don't want to spank fine... but when your kid ends up in a day program, you can reimburse me for the taxes that I have to pay for people trying to reprogram him. [/quote]
how this NOT a personal attack? you tell me my kids are gonna end up in a day program and boot camp?! implying that they will have a lack of discipline and will be wild and unruly?!

and you're right. 13 is probably not a qualified number. but it's all i have to go by. it's my personal experience. and knowing what my brothers and sisters went through as children, having their kids turn out decently is more than i expected.

i expected better of you ironmonk. i think you get too hotheaded at times and don't think before you type.

God bless. i'm done with this thread. it had a good starting out point (your article you posted) but now it has deginerated into this debate.

sheesh. no wonder i almost never wander into the debate table.

P.S. I have too much respect for you, ironmonk. i'll stay out of your way from now on.

[BeenaBobba]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Jul 16 2004, 01:12 PM'] [b]Proverbs 13:24 [/b]
He who spares his rod hates his son, but he who loves him takes care to chastise him.

[b]Proverbs 23:13[/b]
Withhold not chastisement from a boy; if you beat him with the rod, he will not die.
[b]14 [/b]Beat him with the rod, and you will save him from the nether world.

[/quote]
We both agree that corporal punishment can be warranted at times. But those passages say nothing about hitting a child with a belt, hitting a kid really hard, leaving marks or welts, knocking the wind out of a child, and drawing blood. It just says that corporal punishment is good, and I just so happen to agree. (But I also believe that it can be taken too far, and that lines can be crossed. Those passages don't even address that issue.)

God bless,

Jen

[ironmonk]

[quote]I simply said that hitting a kid with a belt would almost always leave a physical mark on a child -- and I think that's child abuse[/quote]

I was spanked with the belt, and never had a mark. I wore jeans most the time, they protect quite a bit. Sometimes I had to drop my pants, when I was really bad... and it stung... but as Scripture states it's needed (SOMETIMES)


[quote]The paddle is merely a flat surface, like the hand, so if it's not swung hard, it'd have the same effect as the hand. If anything, it probably hurts less.[/quote]

Wrong. The paddle is much harder than a hand. It hurts worse than the hand. I've been spanked by paddles, if you haven't, why would you even think you knew what it felt like?


[quote]Actually, I've seen the results of excessive spanking firsthand[/quote]

I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT ANYTHING "EXCESSIVE".

[quote]When I was five, my mom slapped me so hard I lost my breath and fell onto the floor. The next day, the imprint of her hand could be seen as a big, red welt on my back. [/quote]

That is not the way to spank a child and no one here is saying it is.


[quote]A Catholic women I used to know was beaten as a child. Of course, her dad probably thought he was disciplining her, but she grew up pretty darn scared, believe me, and it took her a long time to recover.[/quote]

NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT BEATING KIDS. We all would agree that is wrong. The belt, hand, paddle on the butt is not beating kids.

People who beat kids do so out of anger and other issues, not for discipline. There is a difference between discipline and beating.


[quote]All that being said, there is a line that should never be crossed. Spanking should only be done in moderation, and not to the point where it causes physical harm. And like you've said, it's more useful with certain kids.[/quote]

Marks should not be left, sometimes a little pain is needed. "SOMETIMES" and "NOT ALL KIDS" are key points that you should pay attention to.




You have implied by your statements that all I have posted is exessive. You ASSUME the belt will always leave marks... It doesn't. A belt IS NOT a whip. It's a wide piece of leather.

YOU HAVE NO EXPERIANCE GETTING SPANKED WITH A BELT AND YOU ARE ARGUING WITH ME ABOUT IT??? Where is the logic in that, after I've stated that I did get the belt, and it did not leave marks.... You want to call me a liar? You do not have any experiance or even looked at a butt after being spanked with a belt... is that not the definition of clueless in regards to the topic?

[BeenaBobba]

First of all, you're going by your own experience, but you diss Lil Red for going by hers? Personally, I don't see the logic in that.

Second of all, how do you know what I have and haven't been spanked with? At least ask before you presume, okay? A belt has been slapped across my skin (when playing around), and it left a mark on me.

Like I've said, if something doesn't leave a mark, doesn't draw blood, or doesn't knock the wind out of a child, I'm fine with it as a method of corporal punishment. You're getting way too defensive and personal, my friend. In all due respect, typing your responses in all caps (i.e., screaming) bears witness to this, so please try to calm down.

God bless,

Jen