Are We Supposed To Forgive The Devil?

[Apotheoun]

[i]I wrote the following little poetic narrative many years ago. Now, it is not meant to be a serious theological work, but is just a simple personal reflection about the nature of Satan's fall and his damnation[/i].


Satan’s Fall

God created the Angelic Hierarchy, and within this hierarchy He gave existence to a being surpassing all the others in beauty, and that being was named Lucifer, the bearer of Light. Lucifer, reveling in his own existence, sees his own beauty as he contemplates his own glorious nature, and in doing this he finds great satisfaction, because from his own perspective nothing in created reality can ever exceed his own excellence. With the recognition of his own beauty he experiences an intense feeling of satisfaction. While still experiencing this wondrous joy, he turns his gaze onto the divine majesty enthroned in Heavens, the source of all being, and thus he begins to contemplate the sacred mystery of the Triune God. He becomes enraptured in the Shekinah of God, but looking deeper and deeper into the glory of the Godhead, he sees to his horror something that he cannot believe or accept. In his mystical contemplation of the radiant light of the glory of God it is revealed to him that he and the entire Heavenly Host will witness the elevation of a creature made of flesh and blood to a state of glory exceeding that of all nine of the Angelic Choirs. He sees that God the Son, the second person of the Blessed Trinity, will condescend to assume human nature, and become man. He cannot bear the thought of this, because from his perspective Almighty God will be abasing Himself in order to exalt a vile animal creature to a glory to which it has no conceivable right. God, clothed in a coarse body of flesh, will sit on the very throne of Heaven, and humanity will be raised into the grandeur of the divine power and majesty, and will be deified in the process. Knowing this to be God's intention, he decides that God must have forgotten the proper glories of the various hierarchies of His own creation, and thus filled with envy and a spirit of rebellion, he decides to resist the divine will. In his revolt against the Holy Trinity Satan knew his fate, for he knew that it would mean his eternal damnation, but his pride was too great, and so he decided that he would never bow down before that contemptible beast of flesh ruling in celestial glory. But what he failed to understand is that God’s love permeates all that He has created, and not even Satan can escape this powerful love of God for His creation. The burning love of God, which is the joy of the saints in the beatific vision, is the very thing that causes pain to Satan and all those who have damned themselves, because they have definitively rejected God, and yet, they can never escape God’s infinite love for them.

[nikkan_hanil]

You beat me to it.

[Tora-Musume]

Apotheoun Thank you for the explanation through your poetic narrative. You have answered my question.

[quote]The burning love of God, which is the joy of the saints in the beatific vision, is the very thing that causes pain to Satan and all those who have damned themselves, because they have definitively rejected God, and yet, they can never escape God’s infinite love for them.
[/quote]

[MC Just]

[quote name='Tora-Musume' date='Aug 1 2004, 11:40 AM'] So you mean to tell me that you are willing to forgive the Devil by providing him with toilet water? And will this toilet water consist of anything or will it be clean toilet water? [/quote]
it will consist of something..... Ah ok I wont go into detail...

[nikkan_hanil]

Sick.

[Tora-Musume]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Aug 1 2004, 09:37 AM'] I know for a fact that angels are not created in the image of God - that is a characteristic distinct to humans alone. [/quote]
Please explain what this quote means. Thank You.

[MichaelFilo]

The quote says what it says. Angels are not in the image of God. We, as humans are. Angels are considered animals. One of the speculated reasons for God's punishment on Sodom and Gomorrah (sp?) has been that the people of the town wanted to commit beasality, because angels are of a different species. If they are of a different species then humans, then they cannot be in the image of God. Only humans can.

[qfnol31]

That can't be right. The Angels are above man (so I believe St. Thomas Aquinas said). They have rational souls, and have free will. In fact, their choice was greater than ours are.

Edited to say: Thanks to Todd I remembered to say that they are made in the image of God, just not incarnate. Their will and intellect is in the image of God.

Edited August 2, 2004 by qfnol31

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Aug 1 2004, 10:15 PM'][quote name='Apotheoun' date='Aug 1 2004, 09:17 PM'][quote name='qfnol31' date='Jul 31 2004, 09:49 PM']I would just add to that that we should love our human enemies because they are not damned and haven't completely rejected God until the end of time as has Satan.  They can still choose God, and we should try to convert them, through love of course.[/quote]
I agree, and the distinction that you make is vital, because human beings can repent until the day that they die. Satan, on the other hand, knew what he was doing when he rebelled against God and he cannot repent, because as an immaterial being his will was irrevocably set in opposition to God from the moment that he rejected God's love.[/quote]
God offers love, the devil rejects the love. thus the devil does not receive any of God's love, and the devil eternally rejects God's love thus the devil will never receive any of God's love. and this is why Apotheon said God no longer loves him, for for love to exist between two there must be give and take. God gives, the devil does not take, the action of love is not completed.[/quote]
A slight clarification is necessary, because in my original response to "qfnol31," I was differentiating between man and Satan, and the fact that man, as a hylomorphic being composed of body and soul, can change his will until he dies, but that Satan as an immaterial being knew the consequences of his decision from the moment he made it and his will was set irrevocably from that moment on. This means that Satan does not love God, but God still loves Satan, and always will because God loves everything that He has created. Here is my original post with a few clarifications (in bold face): "[i]I agree, and the distinction that you make is vital, because human beings can repent until the day that they die. Satan, on the other hand, knew what he was doing when he rebelled against God and he [/i][[b]i.e., Satan[/b]][i] cannot repent, because as an immaterial being his [/i][[b]i.e., Satan's[/b]][i] will was irrevocably set in opposition to God from the moment that he [/i][[b]i.e., Satan[/b]] [i]rejected God's love[/i]." Thus, Satan has rejected God's love, but God continues to love Satan, because God loves everything that He has created; in fact, as I said in my little poetic narrative, "[i]The burning love of God, which is the joy of the saints in the beatific vision, is the very thing that causes pain to Satan and all those who have damned themselves, because they have definitively rejected God, and yet, they can never escape God's infinite love for them[/i]."

I apologize for the complexity of this post.

God bless,
Todd

Edited August 2, 2004 by Apotheoun

[qfnol31]

Wouldn't it be true that if God ever stopped loving us, we would cease to exist?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Aug 1 2004, 10:25 PM'] Wouldn't it be true that if God ever stopped loving us, we would cease to exist? [/quote]
Yes, because God is the existential efficient cause of all that contingently exists.

[MichaelFilo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Aug 2 2004, 01:30 AM'] Yes, because God is the existential efficient cause of all that contingently exists. [/quote]
So God must love the devil, or the devil would cease to exist, correct?

God bless,

Mikey

[qfnol31]

Ego Eimi. I think that's spelled correctly. But yes, He must love the devil for him to exist.

[carrdero]

JeffCR07 writes: Carrdero, before I reply to your previous post, I'm interested to know what position your spirituality is coming from. It seems clear that you are not catholic, though you may be a protestant denomination from the sound of some of the things that you are saying.

My spirituality used to come from alot of different sources-none of them my own. Like anyone who wonders about GOD there are those who constantly seek and search out. It took many years to realize that GOD was always right in front of me and I began to develop my own friendship with GOD that exists and flourishes to this day.
As for my denomination I was baptized Catholic, though I don't yet understand how this information could be useful to you.

JeffCR07 writes: I would define an enemy as one who seeks to lead you away from God.


How could anyone lead you away from GOD? What is the kind of REALationship that you have with GOD that you could easily be misled from? What entity do you know personally who has the power to do this? Has this happened to you persoanally? Can you share these experiences with me?

JeffCR07 writes: I would argue that your belief that he "has personally done nothing to me to fall in the classification as my enemy" would delight him in the utmost, for there is nothing an enemy loves more than for the one whose downfall he is plotting to actually belief him to be a friend.

Yes but I have never met Satan. Either Satan has no desire or time to make my acquaintance or I haven't had the time or desire to make his.I haven't met anyone who knows who Satan is. I 've met people who have heard or read about him-but never met him. There are many entities that I haven't met or have chosen to meet in this lifetime. But as fortunate or as unfortunate as this relationship could have been with Satan, I can honestly tell you that the "meeting" has never taken place. If your theory is that Satan has an "indirect relationship" with me or that he is plotting my downfall on the sidelines than it sounds like he has trouble with getting relationships started (he doesn't sound very efficient either).

JeffCR07 writes: Actually, the "image of God" which is referred to in the book of Genesis - not proverbs - is, as taught by the Church, the union of the human soul with the human body, not at all the "ideas of God."

First I must correct what may have been a slight misunderstanding. I did not say that that the "image of GOD" was in the book of Proverbs I said "the image of GOD" that the proverb (short wise saying used for a long time by many people:adage) speaks of is the imagination- "

JeffCR07 writes: Satan rejected God's in totality, and God loves him no longer, for there is nothing of worth left to love.

If the story is TRUE that there was a Satan and that this Being chose to reject GOD and GOD's love, the big question remains does GOD love the devil. GOD's love has been described reasonably to me as UNCONDITONALLY. This means pure love no conditions. This makes sense to me. Can I prove this? Will you just have to take my word for it? No, but out of all the concepts and theories that were presented to me this one really makes sense. There are many people who choose not to have a REALationship with GOD. Does anyone think that a Supreme Being who is capable of infinite love without any preconceived expectations of any entity would knowingly exclude them from the magnitude, from the power of this love? Is this what you were taught? Is this actually how it was explained to you? Yes the choice to love GOD is ours, that is one of the many freedoms we have but I do not believe that GOD would disassociate any entity that would reject, ignore, or just plain not care to get to know GOD. In fact I would believe that GOD would have enough love for the both of them.

JeffCR07 writes: No offense intended, but this statement is, from a purely intellectual standpoint, ridiculous. Holiness, or Godliness, is intrinsically natural to God himself, and is unattainable to the Devil, who is eternally and fully seperated from God.

No offense recieved. Again maybe another misunderstanding here when I said there is nothing really "holy" about GOD. I meant holy (Set apart for religious use or GOD's service). I don't believe there is a regime to join when you become friends with GOD. I would not encourage a relationship where my friends or acquaintences were in "service" to/of me. The friends and acquaintence that I do have are not all religious and these relationships remain worthy of encouragement to this day. I don't believe GOD would set these standards either. I believe that that is why many people shy away or become disinterested with encouraging a real, open, caring, personal relationship with GOD. With organized religion the relationship with GOD is already defined (not proven) for you. Anyone who has ever developed an honest relationship with GOD knows that no one can ever lead you away. The patience, the conversation, the LOVE and the UNDERSTANDING are far too compelling to just ignore. If any human has a fear that any other entity could break a communion with GOD the only thing that I am to conclude is that this human does not understand who GOD is or what GOD means in their lives.

JeffCR07 writes: Anyone who believes that the Bible contains the True Word of God, and/or believes in the teachings of the Most Holy Tradition of the Catholic Church, has all the proof that they need in the form of Divine Revelation.

You can believe all you want. Believing is another of our freedoms. Believe all you want but this is important- accept nothing until you have proven this belief to be a truth or an untruth. This method works for everything you apply it to. People can tell you, people can advise you, people can teach you, that is fine. You can believe them all you want-that is fine but- if you want to adopt this as one of your truths you better be able to prove or unprove it to yourself or it remains a belief.

JeffCR07 writes: First, God does not engage in "doubt."

GOD does not engage in any of the ways that humans think or judge.

JeffCR07 writes: You feel that, if God is really omnipotent and omniscient, then why would he allow evil to exist.

That is not what I am saying. GOD does not judge right or wrong GOD does not judge good or evil. Humans do. We allow good and evil, right and wrong to exist. We are the judges, we are the jurors. I think GOD has a very good understanding of the human condition. Better than we do but who would want to get to know a GOD who was always judgemental or patronizing or bigoted. Who would want to enter a relationship to a GOD that we were always fearful of displeasing or a GOD who decided who are friends are? Not me!

JeffCR07 writes: This is not the case at all, and it is true pride to think that one can understand all that God does.

When you enter into a sincere and honest relationship with GOD you check your pride and your ego at the door. You can pick it up on the way out but don't be surprised if some of it is missing. I am getting a lot pride from some people that is "puffed up" but it is not from their relationship with GOD it is from their relationship with their church. GOD never needed us to defend him. GOD is not proud. GOD is not exclusive. GOD is joy.

JeffCR07 writes: However, Catholicism teaches and has always taught that we are responsible for our own actions.

Then why all the need to study or mention Satan? Why all the need to place emphasis on the existence of Satan? If GOD and Satan do indeed have a problem with each other and our relationship with GOD is indeed rock solid, than the outcome between the two should not concern us or our relationship with GOD.

Edited August 2, 2004 by carrdero

[carrdero]

Aloysius writes: God offers love, the devil rejects the love. thus the devil does not receive any of God's love, and the devil eternally rejects God's love thus the devil will never receive any of God's love. and this is why Apotheon said God no longer loves him, for for love to exist between two there must be give and take. God gives, the devil does not take, the action of love is not completed.

This post is very good but one should remember there is no measurement of love. Another way to expound on this is to say that yes the love exits between both GOD and Satan it just isn't evolving. Marriages got like this some times.

Edited August 2, 2004 by carrdero

[carrdero]

Wouldn't it be true that if God ever stopped loving us, we would cease to exist?


Apotheoun writes: Yes, because God is the existential efficient cause of all that contingently exists.

I think the way it was presentented to me was that if GOD chose not to exist we would not exist. I don't think it would have to do with LOVE. GOD could still LOVE GOD and us and cease to exist. The only reason GOD would end it all is if GOD is not enJOYing existence and I do not think there is much concern at this moment for that to happen.

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote]That can't be right. The Angels are above man (so I believe St. Thomas Aquinas said). They have rational souls, and have free will. In fact, their choice was greater than ours are.[/quote]

Zach, just to clarify. The angels are only above man with regards to the sinners here on earth, and the sinners being purified in purgatory. However, the angels are [i]not[/i] above those men like the saints in heaven, or, perhaps an even better example, Mary, who is Queen of Heaven. This is precisely because we are created in the image of God, and the angels are not. We seperate ourselves from God's love for us through sin, and so lower ourselves. But once we are in heaven and partake in the Divine Nature of God we become deified, and are exalted far above all the angels in heaven, just as Todd expressed in his narrative (that was awesome, by the way).

Yes, angels have free will and a rational soul (though they are bound for eternity by the decision that they have already made, but this is only one component of what makes one "made in the image of God" - another is a physical body, which angels lack. Also, I don't think their choice is any greater or less than ours, they simply made it all at once, while we make it over our lifetimes.

Carrdero:

[quote]How could anyone lead you away from GOD? What is the kind of REALationship that you have with GOD that you could easily be misled from? What entity do you know personally who has the power to do this? Has this happened to you persoanally? Can you share these experiences with me?[/quote]

Someone can lead me away from God by encouraging me to sin. I have a far too weak relationship with God, but this is true of all human beings throughout all ages. Plenty of entities have the power to do this, provided my will is not strengthened by prayer and devotion: Food can cause me to fall into gluttony, Girls can cause me to lust, friends can pressure me to sin in a myriad of ways. I myself can lead me away from God by bowing to my own inclination to sin.

[quote]If your theory is that Satan has an "indirect relationship" with me or that he is plotting my downfall on the sidelines than it sounds like he has trouble with getting relationships started (he doesn't sound very efficient either).[/quote]

All of the examples that I gave previously: food causing gluttony, the opposite sex causing lust, etc are all tools that satan uses to lead us away from God. Whether we acknowledge it or not will not change the reality of it, it will only make us less prepared and capable of guarding ourselves against such temptations. On a more practical note, I would argue that ALL sins are related to - and used by - Satan, who is the author of our downfall and damnation. When I look out and witness the countless sins in the world, it looks like he is remarkably efficient to me.

[quote]"the image of GOD" that the proverb (short wise saying used for a long time by many people:adage) speaks of is the imagination-[/quote]

This is still incorrect, as I pointed out in my previous post.

[quote]Does anyone think that a Supreme Being who is capable of infinite love without any preconceived expectations of any entity would knowingly exclude them from the magnitude, from the power of this love? Is this what you were taught? Is this actually how it was explained to you? Yes the choice to love GOD is ours, that is one of the many freedoms we have but I do not believe that GOD would disassociate any entity that would reject, ignore, or just plain not care to get to know GOD. In fact I would believe that GOD would have enough love for the both of them.[/quote]

First, to clear something up. Yes, God's love is eternally extended towards the Devil, however, to reap the fruit and benefits of that love, we must accept it, which is precisely what the Devil refuses to do.

Now, in order to address the second issue, we must understand that there are two types of Divine Will. God's Active Will consists of all those things which He directly acts upon (creation, miracles, rising from the dead, etc etc). His Permissive Will consists of those things which he allows, but does not cause.

Applying this to the question you pose, we understand, and are taught by the Church, that God desires for all of us to come to live in perfect communion with Him, and he desires us to do so freely. In order for us to be free, his Permissive Will allows for us to choose to reject him and thus be damned. Carrdero, if what you were trying to say is true - that we will all be saved regardless of what we do, this denies the essence of our free will, which takes its first roots in spiritual reality. So, that we might freely come to Him, God allows for us to be damned.

[quote]If any human has a fear that any other entity could break a communion with GOD the only thing that I am to conclude is that this human does not understand who GOD is or what GOD means in their lives.[/quote]

I agree with much of this statement. We are to hope and trust in God, and never to despair. This exact principle has been upheld by the Church for 2000 years. As long as we persevere in our love for Christ, satan will not accomplish his goal of seperating us from God. However, I must add on an addendum to your statement. If any human believes that God is not perfectly Just, and that He will not punish those who have sinned against him in a manner that befits their transgression, the only thing that I am to conclude is that this human does not understand who God is or what God means in their lives.

[quote]I would not encourage a relationship where my friends or acquaintences were in "service" to/of me.[/quote]

We are all called to serve each other, with all of our being, just as Christ lived and died in service of us. Any relationship that is not founded on service would greatly worry me.

[quote]You can believe them all you want-that is fine but- if you want to adopt this as one of your truths you better be able to prove or unprove it to yourself or it remains a belief.[/quote]

I agree wholeheartedly with this statement. Saints Augustine, Aquinas, Jerome, Gregory, Francis deSales, and countless others have provided and argued proofs of the catholic faith. Initially I was not going to comment on this, but now that you have brought it up, I have yet to see you back up your assertions with a logical proof of any kind, nor have I seen you use any sources at all aside from your own opinions. I was under the assumption that, because you do not have material from which to back up your stance, you desired us to argue the philosophical validity of your speculations.

[quote]We allow good and evil, right and wrong to exist.[/quote]

God, who is, in Aristotelian terms, "The Good" or [i]summum bonum[/i] would exist whether we exist or not. Good and Evil are not dependent on mankind, they are objective truths.

[quote]Who would want to enter a relationship to a GOD that we were always fearful of displeasing or a GOD who decided who are friends are?[/quote]

Who would want to enter into a relationship with a God before whom we come as equals? I love my parents, but I am not equal to them, and I (try to) always take into consideration that which would displease them before making a decision. What kind of God would refuse to benefit us with justice in the form of punishment for evil deeds? I greatly fear displeasing God, but I love him even more than I fear him, and it is from this love that I desire to do His will and follow in His way.

[quote]GOD never needed us to defend him. GOD is not proud. GOD is not exclusive. GOD is joy.[/quote]

I agree wholeheartedly. God will continue to be God even if all of humanity rises up against him. If any of us here have been prideful, the I humbly want to apologize for it. Please try to understand that in many cases a zealous love of the truth can itself be a temptation to sin through pride, and if this is what has happened here, we are sorry. We should also note that God is Love, and in His Love, he has made us free, and that the most fundamental freedom we have is the ability to choose to be with God or to chose to be seperated from Him. Through our sins, we choose the latter, and this is how we are damned, for in making such a decision, we come to "know him not."

[quote]Then why all the need to study or mention Satan? Why all the need to place emphasis on the existence of Satan? If GOD and Satan do indeed have a problem with each other and our relationship with GOD is indeed rock solid, than the outcome between the two should not concern us or our relationship with GOD.[/quote]

There are a couple flaws in this statement. First, there is no one on earth who has a "rock solid" relationship with God. You sin, I sin, everyone on earth sins, and with each sin, we show God that our relationship with him is not what it should be, that it is not "rock solid." Because our relationship with God is [i]not[/i] rock solid, "the outcome between the two" (God and Satan) [i]does[/i] concern us, and our relationship with God. As long as we are living on this earth, we can turn away from God, reject His Grace, and give in to mortal sin. As long as that door is open, Satan will try his hardest to walk through it, by providing temptations to us which will draw us away from God, and break down our relationship with Him.

I hope this helps to clear some stuff up!

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[Tora-Musume]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Aug 2 2004, 07:44 AM'] All of the examples that I gave previously: food causing gluttony, the opposite sex causing lust, etc are all tools that satan uses to lead us away from God. Whether we acknowledge it or not will not change the reality of it, it will only make us less prepared and capable of guarding ourselves against such temptations. On a more practical note, I would argue that ALL sins are related to - and used by - Satan, who is the author of our downfall and damnation. When I look out and witness the countless sins in the world, it looks like he is remarkably efficient to me.
[/quote]
[quote]On a more practical note, I would argue that ALL sins are related to - and used by - Satan, who is the author of our downfall and damnation.[/quote]

In this statement, are you saying that there is some satan in us all?


[quote]When I look out and witness the countless sins in the world, it looks like he is remarkably efficient to me.[/quote]


So in this statement, Satan mesmerized entities to do evil things. Like this war that is going on now. Entities are sinning because of Satan? Is it the work of Satan that a pregnant woman kills her baby through abortion because the woman would die if she didn't, due to health reasons? So, Satan causes us to murder the unborn? Satan mesmerizes us in eating unhealthy or lusting for the opposite sex?

[ironmonk]

The saints in Heaven will judge angels.


[b]1 Corin 6:3 [/b]
Do you not know that we will judge angels?


It would be safe to say that at least some of the Saints are above angels, possibly all.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[carrdero]

JeffCR07 writes: Someone can lead me away from God by encouraging me to sin.

Yes but as you develop an open and honest relationship with GOD one of the earliest qualities you will realize about GOD is that there is no anger, there is no judgement there is no offense you can bring to GOD. GOD is very understanding of human condition. God knows we make mistakes, GOD knows we stray from the path, GOD is not expectant of this factor, just very UNDERSTANDING.

JeffCR07 writes: I have a far too weak relationship with God, but this is true of all human beings throughout all ages.

Well I know it is never to late to strengthen your REALationship with GOD. Though I do not think you will be able to strengthen your REALationship through a book because GOD cannot be contained to a book. I don't think it will be strengthened on who you know or where you are because GOD is available and accessable to everyone everywhere. GOD also understands that there will be many people who really would not want to encourage a REALationship with a Supreme Being for one reason or another. GOD has assured me that this is fine that GOD exists with or without our acceptance and that the love and companionship is available to anyone if and when they are ready to begin a sincere friendship. I appreciated this to be one of the most modest and intelligent qualities of GOD

JeffCR07 writes: Plenty of entities have the power to do this, provided my will is not strengthened by prayer and devotion

GOD doesn't want or need our devotion. Sometimes people forget that GOD is Almighty or a Supreme Being. A Supreme Being does not need worship or devotion. GOD is way above and beyond that. GOD has to have this modest quality in order for us to recognize and enter into a fair and respectable REALationship. If it is to be believed that GOD's love is UNCONDITIONAL then devotion is a condition, faithfullness is a condition, worship is a condition. I don't base my REALationships on what kind of devotion I can get from other people and I do not believe that this is a consideration of GOD either.
As far as prayer goes, there are many people who tell me "but Mr. Cardero I pray to GOD all the time I must have a great REALationship with GOD." I usually tell them "yes but are you talking to GOD or with GOD?" In all my experiences the best relationships occur when people are talking and allowing some moments to listen. Many people have forgotten to listen to GOD. They will recite their prayer to GOD and never bother to hang around or look for an answer. Many people who have preconceived notions about GOD will offer their prayers and just assume that they know what answer GOD will give them. This is not a REALationship at all. A REALationship is a two way conversation. It is talking as well as listening.

JeffCR07 writes: Food can cause me to fall into gluttony, Girls can cause me to lust, friends can pressure me to sin in a myriad of ways.

I don't ever remember reading a classified friendship ad from GOD that said no fatties or promiscuous sexual deviants or druggies. In order for GOD to guide or advise us on these matters we have to present the challenge to GOD and GOD has to have a deep understanding of the human condition. This means that we can never be turned away from GOD because if there are two things GOD loves it is a good challenge and chance to offer assistance.

JeffCR07 writes: I myself can lead me away from God by bowing to my own inclination to sin.

You can cancel your REALationship with GOD at anytime but please keep the free complimentary LOVE and the UNDERSTANDING that is from GOD.

JeffCR07 writes: All of the examples that I gave previously: food causing gluttony, the opposite sex causing lust, etc are all tools that satan uses to lead us away from God.

No, these are all examples that we do to ourselves. Any INCORRECT decision that you make in life would be fairly placed upon yourself. If you do not want to be a glutton you will not be a glutton, if you do not want to be a smoker you will not be a smoker. If you do not want to harm or disrespect anyone you will not harm or disrespect anyone. You make your decisions in life not Satan. Satan is a very poor blame for these INCORRECT moments in our lives. GOD on the other hand is a great helping source for us to turn to. Any example you give me will always rely on the will and the decisions of that individual. In all my dealings no entity has ever made me sad, happy, angry or irresponsible. I can only do this to myself.

JeffCR07 writes:When I look out and witness the countless sins in the world, it looks like he is remarkably efficient to me.

What you are witnessing is humans inconsideration and disrespect for others not Satan's. In actuallity (as a society) we are very proficient at doing Satan's job for him (whether he exists or not).

JeffCR07 writes: Please try to understand that in many cases a zealous love of the truth can itself be a temptation to sin through pride, and if this is what has happened here, we are sorry.

I can forgive the zealous Love but I cannot forget that there is alot of people claiming to have the TRUTH. I haven't seen any evidence or PROOF of this TRUTH yet. I have witnissed faith, feelings, opinions, beliefs, doctrine, dogma but I haven't seen anyone present hard practical conclusive evidence to support these TRUTHs that they are proclaiming. Don't get me wrong anyone can say that I believe this or that I put faith in this or my opinion is this or that was the way it was taught to me, I can respect and understand that. But don't claim that you have the TRUTH because you read it somewhere or someone taught it to you or this is the way that it has been going on for 2000 years and that I will just have to deal with it. That is not how I come by my TRUTHs and I don't believe that is how GOD got to be TRUTHFUL either.

JeffCR07 writes: If any human believes that God is not perfectly Just, and that He will not punish those who have sinned against him in a manner that befits their transgression, the only thing that I am to conclude is that this human does not understand who God is or what God means in their lives.

What would be the PURPOSE of GOD exacting or sentencing a punishment or judgement on us? What would be the meaning behind this? What does GOD get from this? Does GOD get a nickel for every soul saved? Does GOD derive some secret pleasure from watching us writhe in temptation? Does GOD never want us to forget that GOD is GOD and we should tremble in GOD's power no matter what we desire to do? This is not friendship, this is not LOVE, this is not a healthy REALationship. Do you have any friends who do this to you? I just need one reason why you think GOD would act/react like this.

JeffCR07 writes: We are all called to serve each other, with all of our being.

Yes because of our decision to do so. It doesn't take a rocket scientist, a priest or pope or even GOD to help us realize that being considerate to your fellow man or woman is a joyous occasion. This is common sense. This is TRUTH. Some people have proven this many times over.

JeffCR07 writes: Any relationship that is not founded on service would greatly worry me.

If we are talking about a REALationship as profound as GOD's friendship and that is how you feel then that will always remain a great concern to you. I am pleased by the fact that when I approach GOD I do not have to walk through a field of eggshells to get to GOD. True friendships are not about worry. Either an entity wants to enter a REALationship with you and accept you as you are or they don't and if they do not want to accept you for who you are then maybe they wouldn't make a great friend for you anyway. This is grade school knowledge. I don't recall GOD ever having a record for turning people away but I am aware of all the entities who refuse to approach GOD.

JeffCR07 writes:I agree wholeheartedly with this statement. Saints Augustine, Aquinas, Jerome, Gregory, Francis deSales, and countless others have provided and argued proofs of the catholic faith.

How can you argue PROOFS for faith. This is a contradicting statement. First, if the PROOFS are refutable which they should be, then they are already TRUTHS. A faith is not a TRUTH. A belief is not a TRUTH.

JeffCR07 writes: I have yet to see you back up your assertions with a logical proof of any kind, nor have I seen you use any sources at all aside from your own opinions. I was under the assumption that, because you do not have material from which to back up your stance, you desired us to argue the philosophical validity of your speculations.

When and where possible in my posts I have tried to use words and phrases like "I believe" or "it was presented to me as" or "in my opinion". In all honesty I cannot give you TRUTH. Even if I had my own Bible that I wrote that claimed to come from the Almighty himself could I get you or anyone to believe anything I had to say or adopt it as a TRUTH. So when applicable I will not tell you it is a TRUTH because just because I have PROVEN or UNPROVEN it to me does not mean this is right for your spirit or existence. If anyone does not believe anything I have said so far, I allow them to enter their own persoanl REALationship with GOD and get the answers for themselves (GOD has the answers). My views are just another way to look at life I do not expect anyone to blindly believe me without PROVING these beliefs to yourself first. Some of these quotes are very difficult to PROVE but I refuse to take them as faith. Faith immediately stops someone in search for the TRUTH. I can be content in these beliefs until another belief PROVES or UNPROVES the ones that I encourage. So far there hasn't been an argument or debate or opinion or belief that has done that and I assure you that I am very open-minded being.

JeffCR07 writes: Good and Evil are not dependent on mankind.

Good and Evil are not dependant on mankind that are manufactured for sale to mankind. I'm not buying.


JeffCR07 writes:Initially I was not going to comment on this, but now that you have brought it up,

Please I want you to be honest with me, if you want to be frank with me be frank with me, if you want to be condescending you can be that too. I want you to know that you can be as approachful to me as you can with GOD.


JeffCR07 writes: Who would want to enter into a relationship with a God before whom we come as equals? I love my parents, but I am not equal to them, and I (try to) always take into consideration that which would displease them before making a decision.

Please don't compare your relationship to GOD as to your parents. If you have noticed through your experiences with your other relationships you don't approach those as you would your parents. This sounds unhealthy and unfair to everyone involved. I know I wouldn't want any of my friends telling me when I should go to bed or telling me I can't go to the dance with Mary Lou. The only difference between you and GOD is the moments that you have existed. GOD is considered the longest existing entity that we know of. With that being said, qualities such as wisdom, knowledge and understanding are bound to be sharp and abundant in GOD. Please do not put GOD on any pedastals that GOD does not want to be put upon.

JeffCR07 writes:As long as we are living on this earth, we can turn away from God, reject His Grace, and give in to mortal sin.

Yes but at no extra cost to you. I don't know about anyone else but if GOD has the power to end my life today, tomorrow or yesterday GOD can do that at any moment. I am grateful for the moments in which I have spent on this planet. Even if it was just a short time. If GOD desires to end existence for me than GOD can but I refuse to live a life of expecting or not expecting to offend or displease GOD. That is not existing freely that is performing and I do not desire to perform for anyone.

JeffCR07 writes: First, there is no one on earth who has a "rock solid" relationship with God.

Oh I don't know about that. I haven't received any complaints from GOD yet.

JeffCR07 writes: I hope this helps to clear some stuff up!

I apologize but as much as I respect you and enjoy talking with you it really doesn't offer me much enlightment.

Edited August 2, 2004 by carrdero